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Why Andrei Kirilenko and CSKA Moscow must win the Euroleague

April 2, 2012

Regular readers of BallinEurope may recall a similarly entitled writeup on Montepaschi Siena on these pages from a long time ago – actually two weeks, but already it *feels* like quite a spell. Contributing writer Enrico Cellini was as surprised as any of us when Olympiacos began Siena’s ejection from the tournament, Facebook-messaging BiE with the note that “Siena is trying its best to prove me wrong…”

But this post doesn’t concern BiE’s now-busted bracket, a frustrating finish to what had been a good-looking campaign for Montepaschi Siena, or even the Final Four surprise Olympiacos. Nope, we’re talking CSKA Moscow and that individual symbol of all of international basketball in 2011-12, Andrei Kirilenko.

In fact, why waste time? BallinEurope gets right down into an even 10 reasons why CSKA and the AK must win the 2012 Euroleague title.

• Simply put, CSKA Moscow has the best roster. Any disagreement?

• Kirilenko *may be* league MVP. Yes, BiE realizes that the latter contention is a bit controversial here. However, though the arguments for Nenad Krstic and Vassilis Spanoulis to take the Euroleague’s highest individual honor are solid, BiE nevertheless stands firm on this point, particularly after Kirilenko’s shows in the playoff series.

While one opposition voice to the Kirilenko-for-MVP debate opines that “If he wins the MVP award, it is just a marketing gimmick to the NBA agenda and nothing more than that.” But BiE would argue that Kirilenko bagging the prize would reward play far outside the NBA mainstream style. The AK has been near tops in the league in performance index rating since game one (the only player within a point of Kirilenko’s 24.07 per-game PIR is Nicolas Batum, who went for six games with SLUC Nancy) while ranking just 17th in ppg.

Points are the most important stat? Can a European basketball fan really be advancing this argument? Even the voice heard above had to admit that Kirilenko “deserves to be DPOY and in the first team of All-Euroleague” while citing his abilities as an “all-role player, all around player, [and] great team defender.”

And while, yes, it’s true that Kirilenko missed five Euroleague games – currently 25% of CSKA’s EL season – due to a nasty concussion suffered in a PBL game, he still ranks *second overall* in cumulative PIR behind only Krstic. When Kirilenko is on the floor, he’s sure to be the key factor.

In any case, what professional baller worth his or her salt wouldn’t want to cap a career year with a title? After all, it don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that bling, right?

(Incidentally, here’s a compromise: How about a co-MVP award with Krstic, then?)

• A CSKA title is one for the defense-loving – particularly if FC Barcelona’s the opponent in the finals. The playmaking point guard may be of disproportionate importance in knockout-game situations, but even in international play defense can still win championships. As aesthetically it should.

As awesome as it was to see Panathinaikos’ marvelous traps and chess-like zone switches on the run to last year’s championship titles, the CSKA and Barça Ds have been even more brilliant to watch in 2011-12 – for completely different reasons. For purists, no other final will do.

• As Charles Barkley is fond of saying, “Father Time is undefeated.” As the 2011-12 season progresses and time marches inexorably on, Kirilenko is realistic and stoic about his future; questions have obviously been on his mind.

The NBA free agent recently put forth a couple of estimates vis-à-vis his career span, but both have the AK-47 shelving his talents within the medium-term future. Last month, Kirilenko informed the folks at Greece-based Eurohoops.net that “I feel that I have a couple more years of great, great basketball in me and I think the NBA is still the best at this moment.” Shortly thereafter, BallinEurope contributor David Hein ran an extensive interview with Kirilenko on his website heinnews in which the Red Army man stated that “I think I still have three to four years of highest-level basketball in future.”

Additionally, Kirilenko “was never thinking about slowly finishing career somewhere. As soon as I see I don’t belong to the best in the world I will retire.”

As the time ticks down, CSKA’s season takes on a new sense of urgency for Kirilenko: Realistically speaking, should he stay true to his word, odds say this is his last run for a title.

• ¡Viva la revolución (and the truly unique)! From the excellent Noam Schiller at the excellent Hardwood Paroxysm: “Kirilenko has long been a frustrating case of a mind that just can’t keep with the frenetic pace set by a unique combination of physique and talent. His lean build masks his athleticism well, but accentuates his length, and enables him to deftly maneuver between the gigantic men that share basketball courts with him. Between the speed, the quickness, the surprising vertical outbursts that stand in sharp contrast to his appearance, the entire basketball court is often just a single step away from Andrei’s long reach. In his purest form, Kirilenko was created with omnipresence in mind.

“Somehow, in the NBA, this raw tendency has always been obstructed. … Placing Kirilenko in any semblance of a ‘natural’ position is severe miscasting, as Kirilenko is in every way the positional revolution incarnate. Clearly, he isn’t a guard, and isn’t a center, but he isn’t really a forward either – he’s an everything, just tall enough to fit between the 2 and the 4, which inevitably ends up being listed as a 3. If anything, the disservice to Andrei is not that the prefix to his ‘forward’ listing is the word ‘small’ instead of ‘power,’ but that he’s been cast as anything at all.”

• Bad guys are great. BiE is one of the more atypical sports fans in the belief that dynasties are good for the sport. A winning team after a monster season gives great opportunity for every other side’s fans to vent, to target, to despise, to hate – and it gives history a measuring stick to previous eras and relative present quality. Imagine the size of the target on the backs on the 2012-13 Red Army. Imagine the delightful swirming of a team teased by overwhelming opinion that “they couldn’t have done it without Kirilenko” as they try to repeat without Kirilenko. Imagine the schadenfreude… (See? If your team’s already out, you’re thinking about CSKA already…)

• CSKA is on the verge of history. Dynasty or no – and with a championship-game appearance in May, that would make five in the past seven seasons – “El Terror de Europa” could well manage an unprecedented triple crown that has eluded them for three years running: a Euroleague title; the VTB United League championship, where after going a group-topping 14-2 have received a bye into the semifinals; and the PBL domestic league, in which they’re 14-1.

• For Kirilenko, success might mean a nice paycheck. Has any NBA refugee performed as well in 2011-12 as Kirilenko? While Sonny Weems’ play in Lithuania should increase his value on the 2012 free agent market (recall how nicely Josh Childress benefitted), Kirilenko should see a nice payoff with any new club. And who doesn’t think Mikhail Prokhorov won’t be watching this Euroleague Final Four very carefully? Assuming the money is there, how does a nucleus of AK-47, Superman II and D-Will sound?

• It’s extra swagger for Team Russia going into the 2012 Olympic Games. With a strong showing in the Eurobasket 2011 tourney, Russia looks good going into summer 2012. What just might offset a grueling schedule? How about the bonus “heart of a champion” side effects plus the shortcut of recent camaraderie that guys like Kirilenko, Viktor Khryapa, Timofey Mozgov, Alexey Shved and Anton Pronkrashov will have shared? Of course, if you’re not Russian, you’re cheering for jetlag.

• The “Hall of Fame” factor. With a 2007 Eurobasket MVP and championship, status as youngest player ever to suit up in Russia’s top league, a mark as the youngest European player ever drafted into the NBA, and lots of memorable national-team performances, Kirilenko is surely a shoo-in for the FIBA Hall of Fame.

But what about that other hall? You know, The Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame ‘Stateside? While Kirilenko’s numbers in the NBA rank him as the 219th greatest ever in that league, perhaps the Russian could be something of a barrier-buster after a historical season. After all, it doesn’t say “NBA” anywhere in the museum’s official title.

Or even more reasonably: So Maccabi Tel Aviv was inducted into the ‘Hall in 2008; how about CSKA Moscow, then? Would a seventh Euroleague championship and/or 12th Euroleague finals appearance be enough to gain attention in North America? BiE thinks it should…

Apr 2, 2012ballineurope
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This post was published on April 2, 2012
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Comments: 179
  1. Apollo
    11 years ago

    I don’t understand why you equate PIR to who should be the MVP. I’ve never ever heard of an NBA MVP being picked by a stat like PIR, so why should Euroleague MVP be picked by PIR?

    PIR isn’t even that good or advanced of a stat, and some parts of it are downright stupid. Not too mention that it greatly favors big men and especially all around players.

    You can’t use PIR to pick an MVP. It would be like saying whomever led the NBA in plus minus or efficiency should be voted the league MVP. It makes absolutely no sense at all.

    It is true that at one point in time, there was no actual MVP award in Euroleague. They simply gave the award based on a PIR stat, which I believe was how Sabonis won it.

    However, after that the Euroleague started to realize how ridiculous that was, when for example Sabonis got MVP without even making the playoffs. So they made an actual MVP award official, where media and fans would vote on it.

    Personally, I don’t like that the fans get so much say in All-Euroleague Team and MVP, but that’s another matter.

    Anyway, since they made it an actual real award that is voted on, I believe Anthony Parker was the first one to win the actual voted on MVP award – I do not recall leading the league in PIR as having any bearing at all on who won the award.

    This does remind me of how the site here was absolutely 100% positive that Kleiza was the Euroleague MVP a couple years ago (which would have made no sense, when on his own team he was not the best player).

    But there were some stats being thrown around to convince how he had to be the MVP because he led the league in scoring, which is funny and ironic that now the same site says scoring isn’t as important as being an all around player, and most all of what Kleiza did was 2 things, score and rebound. So the argument was from this site that Kleiza had to be MVP because he was the Top Scorer, but now it is that scoring does not matter as much, and all around play is more important. Seems hypocritical.

    I seem to also recall the site here was talking about McCalebb maybe being MVP last year, when Diamantidis had one of the all time greatest seasons ever. I could be wrong on that though.

    The point is, that PIR does not determine the league MVP of Euroleague. It may determine the weekly “MVP”, MVP being in quotes because it is not an actual award, but just a PIR stat. NBA fans don’t even seem to grasp that it’s not even a real voted on award, unlike NBA player of the week.

    But it does not determine the league MVP, at least not since Sabonis won it.

    Just for the sake of argument, let us look at the PIR leaders and who won the Euroleague MVP in the seasons since they first created an actual voted on award. Keeping in mind the fan vote also influences this.

    2004-05 PIR leader: Anthony Parker

    2004-05 MVP: Anthony Parker

    2005-06 PIR leader: Anthony Parker

    2005-06 MVP: Anthony Parker

    Notice how the first 2 years there was an actual real voted on award, that they gave it to the PIR leader? Do you see how this would happen? They had been for years giving the MVP simply to whomever led in PIR as a set rule, so when they first voted on it, without any surprise really, they followed that rule, because they were used to it.

    Even though most people always said Parker was not the best player on his own Maccabi team (after Jasikevicius). The voters were doing what they were used to, and giving the award simply based off a stat. And a somewhat meaningless stat at that.

    Now, after those first 2 years, when the voters were still used to the PIR leader being the automatic MVP, and were still not quite used to the concept of being able to pick anyone they wanted for MVP, rather than just voting based on PIR stats…………………………

    2006-07 PIR leader: Nikola Vujcic

    2006-07 MVP: Theo Papaloukas

    2007-08 PIR leader: Marc Salyers

    2007-08 MVP: Ramunas Siskauskas

    2008-09 PIR leader: D’or Fischer

    2008-09 MVP: Juan Carlos Navarro

    2009-10 PIR leader: Aleks Maric

    2009-10 MVP: Milos Teodosic

    2010-11 PIR leader: Fernando San Emeterio

    2010-11 MVP: Dimitris Diamantidis

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  2. Apollo
    11 years ago

    Now, even if you want to factor in which players made the Final Four, OK, let’s list the highest PIRs of players from Final Four teams and who won the MVP:

    OK, so we know Parker did the first 2 years of the award, but again the voters were still used to it automatically going to the PIR leader. So let’s start from there, with the highest PIRs of Final Four teams:

    2006-07 PIR leader of Final Four teams: Luis Scola

    2006-07 MVP: Theo Papaloukas

    2007-08 PIR leader of Final Four teams: Terence Morris

    2007-08 MVP: Ramunas Siskauskas

    2008-09 PIR leader of Final Four teams: Ioannis Bourousis

    2008-09 MVP: Juan Carlos Navarro

    2009-10 PIR leader of Final Four teams: Aleks Maric

    2009-10 MVP: Milos Teodosic

    2009-10 PIR leader of Final Four teams: Aleks Maric

    2009-10 MVP: Milos Teodosic

    2010-11 PIR leader of Final Four teams: Dimitris Diamantidis

    2010-11 MVP: Dimitris Diamantidis

    So, since voters settled in and realized that you don’t have to vote for the PIR leader, and can vote for simply the best player………….the PIR leader was never named MVP.

    Since the voters got comfortable with just picking the best player and not the PIR leader, the ONLY time a PIR leader of Final Four teams was named MVP was last year when Diamantidis won it. Now, it just happens to be that Diamantidis was almost universally said to have had the best year of the decade last year. He didn’t win because of his PIR stat. He won because everyone saw him as the best player of the season, and the most VALUABLE to his team, as in mVp.

    How come the guys like Nikola Vujcic, Luis Scola, Ioannis Bourousis, Aleks Maric – how come they did not win Euroleague MVP? They all had the highest PIR of any player on a Final Four team and yet none of them was voted league MVP?

    Were they outright robbed by the voters? Was the fan vote to blame?

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  3. Apollo
    11 years ago

    Using PIR to pick an MVP, to decide who is the best player in the league, and most of all, to claim who is most VALUABLE to his team, as in mVp, is ridiculous. And clearly, most of the people that vote for the award know that and don’t care about PIR when they make their vote for MVP.

    I can understand easily if you want Kirilenko to be MVP, and also if you think he deserves it, or if you want to claim he is the best player or whatever. But PLEASE enough with this ridiculous PIR stuff already. I am so sick of that PIR stat being used to solely determine who the “best players and MVPs of Euroleague” are.

    If you want to cite stats, YES, scoring is WAY more important than PIR. Like 10 times more important. If you want to tout Kirilenko as MVP, then point out that he led the league in rebounding, a stat which is MUCH MORE important than PIR.

    Trying to claim an MVP off PIR, and then claiming PIR holds more wait than, for example, points per game, is nonsense IMHO. People with good and sound basketball knowledge should be able to grasp that PIR is mostly just a stupid gimmick stat that holds little value or importance.

    Yes, it makes a great show that they use PIR to pick the weekly “MVP”, and thus, Kirilenko must have, “totally dominated”, since he “won” all those weekly “MVP” awards – that are not actually even voted on………..but in reality, it is a pretty meaningless stat.

    Case in point, you brought up Batum. Well, Batum was leading in PIR early on, and yet he was flat out playing like total crap in some games and overall he was playing nowhere close to an “MVP” level. He was “dominating” according to stupid NBA only fans that never saw a Euroleague game in their whole life (GABE), and he was “weekly MVP” from this PIR stat.

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  4. Apollo
    11 years ago

    Never mind that Batum’s team was at best mediocre, and really in truth was worse than that. That he may have only played defense on 2-3 possessions in total in his 6 games, and that he was chucking the ball up, taking a lot of bad shots, and shooting only 40% from the field.

    Or that he was leading the league, by a wide margin, with 5 turnovers per game. Or that he was playing basically 40 minutes a game. And PIR is NOT an adjusted stat. So the more minutes you play, the higher your PIR score.

    I personally watched in back to back games, as Nicolas Batum was literally dominated, and I don’t mean the fake “dominated” that Gabe talks about here, that is imaginary “domination” out of his own mind. I mean actual real domination…….

    Batum was dominated, for real, in back to back weeks. First against Michalis Pelekanos, who owned him so bad it was almost unbelievable to see, and then by Valdimir Micov, who also totally owned and dominated him. I mean, straight out dominated him for real. Pelekanos did a number on him the likes of which I have rarely seen one player do to another.

    Yet………..there was Batum with his weekly “MVP” awards, and his league leading PIR, and his “total domination” of Euroleague, according to Gabe and the other insane and retarded NBA only fan trolls that frequent this site.

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  5. Apollo
    11 years ago

    If you want to tout Kirilenko as Euroleague MVP, then please just focus on his defense, his rebounding, his versatility, his consistent play, and things like that. But don’t give me the PIR argument. Because PIR is a fairly stupid and meaningless stat, and using it to pick best players and league MVPs is just flat out nonsense.

    Batum is the proof of that. He was leading in PIR early on, and yet he was playing like crap in some games. Most everyone I talked to that watched him play, said he was playing just mediocre style basketball. But the NBA only fans like Gabe, said he, “dominated Euro scrubs”, because he had this PIR thing and he was “winning weekly MVPs”……..

    And I do think Batum is a really good player. But he was playing even god awful in a couple of games, and yet he was on top in PIR. So that PIR stat just should NOT be used as a way to determine a league MVP.

    There are legit reasons to claim Kirilenko as MVP, but leading in PIR is not one of them.

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  6. Phileus
    11 years ago

    u mad, bro?

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  7. Galaad
    11 years ago

    Obradovic will find the way to stop cska (once again). If panathinaikos win maccabi tomorrow their going all the way to the trophy…

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  8. ErikK
    11 years ago

    Hers is the way to look at this Euroleague MVP thing.

    But CSKA was predicted by EVERYONE to make the Final Four. And I would say 90% predicted them to win the championship this year. Even everyone pretty much had them in the Final Four before Kirilenko even signed with them.

    I remember most people said Barca and CSKA were the favorites to win the championship this year before CSKA even signed Kirilenko.

    On the other hand, I would say about 50% of the people were saying Olympiacos could not even make the Top 16. About 50% said they COULD make it, not that they would. And it definitely seemed that overall most predictions said they would make the Top 16.

    After they made the Top 16, never once was their any site, or any writer, or journalist anywhere that said they could make the playoffs. Even ALL Olympiacos specific and friendly media said they would not make the playoffs.

    Hell, very few Olympiacos fans even thought they would make the Top 16 even.

    In the 20 or so basketball guys I know that i talk to, only 2 out of 20 thought they could beat Siena. EVERYONE said CSKA would beat Bilbao.

    So the point is that CSKA is EXPECTED to win the title, and was even expected to make the Final Four even without Kirilenko.

    While on the other hand, Olympiacos was said to have at best case scenario a Top 16 season, with even most doubting they could do that. You have the top journalists of Euroleague saying their victory in the playoffs over Siena was the biggest surprise in years for them.

    So if we take MVP at its literal meaning of which player had most value in his team’s success, then it would be Spanoulis. If you are the real leader and best player of a team that greatly exceeds all expectations, while also being a top clear 2-3 player during the year then I think you are indeed a true MVP player.

    I don’t see how anyone could possibly come up with any argument that could claim Krstic or Kirilenko were as valuable to their teams as Spanoulis was to his.

    And for me I will put my best five as,

    Spanoulis
    Diamantidis
    Kirilenko
    Lorbek
    Krstic

    MVP voting I go with,

    1. Spanoulis
    2. Krstic
    3. Kirilenko
    4. Lorbek
    5. Diamantidis

    I have to think more on best defender and rising star.

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  9. Phileus
    11 years ago

    All joking aside, that was a very informative set of posts, Apollo. Thanks for that; I come to this site to learn, and sometimes I can 😛

    Still, though, don’t you think it’s kind of creepy that you mentioned Gabe not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES in your posts? Calm down, man. There’s no need to attack people all the time.

    “So if we take MVP at its literal meaning of which player had most value in his team’s success” – I agree with that definition of MVP. I wonder if the NBA analogy be, “LeBron James shouldn’t be MVP, because he has D-Wade and Bosh and the Heat are expected to win the championship.” It seems, though, that what “MVP” means is actually just as unclear in the Euroleague as it is in the NBA.

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  10. Gabe
    11 years ago

    I’m glad to see that even though I was out of the country was name was kept alive in the BallinEurope post. I’m not going to get into a big discussion here (like how with Batum SLUC Nancy was a contender at 3-3 but didn’t win a single game after he left) but I believe PIR is a good judge of who a good player is, not who should be MVP, but who is a top player. The NBA equivalent to PIR is efficiency rating which is
    1. Lebron James
    2. Kevin Love
    3. Kevin Durant
    Players who are the top players in the NBA so it goes the same for PIR in Euroleague with
    1. Andrei Kirilenko
    2. Nenad Krstic
    3. Bo McCalebb
    And just to get Apollo’s goat, isn’t it funny that the top two are NBA role players and the 3rd is an American (meaning he wasn’t able to make the NBA).

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  11. ErikK
    11 years ago

    I suggest that if Kirilenko does not win Euroleague MVP that Gabe is banned from this site.

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  12. ErikK
    11 years ago

    “Kirilenko is an NBA role player”…………

    How the hell is Gabe not banned from here? This is a ban worthy statement made by him. This guy is a total clown that only comes here to taunt others.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Calling Kirilenko an NBA role player is a ban worthy statement?! Really? I thinks we are arguing semantics then. I did not call Kirilenko an NBA scrub, or bench warmer, or even bench player. I called him an NBA role player. What I mean by role player is he was a regular and serviceable NBA player but not a star. Considering that Kirilenko’s one and only all-star appearance was 8 years ago and his one and only All-Defensive First Team selection was 5 years ago I believe the term “role player” is a very fitting description of at least Kirilenko’s past 5 years in the NBA.

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  13. Michael Zara
    11 years ago

    Anyone that thinks Kirilenko was an NBA role player is an undeniable idiot. It’s even more so that the same person then claims he is the best player in Euroleague.

    Kirilenko has the same exact role on CSKA that he had in Utah. The same exact role, the same exact place in the offense, even the same stats. Except his stats in CSKA are worse than what they were most of his years in the NBA.

    If Kirilenko was a role player in the NBA, then he is also a role player in the Euroleague.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      That’s why in the NBA Kirilenko hasn’t been an All-Star in 8 years, has never even been selected for All-NBA third team, never played in the finals and never been defensive player of the year, while in Euroleague he is pretty much a lock for All-Euroleague first team, DPOY and is even in the discussion of being league MVP and who know,s he might even be final four MVP as well.

      So if you believe Kirilenko has exact same role in the NBA as in Euroleague than you have a development disability. I strongly suggest you seek counseling, there is amazing medication for retards like you these days.

      ReplyCancel
  14. John
    11 years ago

    Kirilenko was a good player for the Jazz. Would he have ever been in the conversation for MVP in the NBA? Nope.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Yeah John thanks,

      That’s all I’m trying to say. In the NBA he was a good, solid but not great or spectacular player while in Euroleague he is in the conversation for MVP as said by this very site who seem to think he is a lock. I’m tired of being insulted and called an “undeniable idiot” for pointing out basic facts. Anybody with a mind and a brain would realize that Kirilenko is one of the top players in Euroleague while in the NBA he was just a good/average player. These people are so insecure, about what I don’t know, that they can’t accept the fact that the NBA is the top league in the world, as quoted by Kirilenko in this site and many other pro players.

      There is nothing wrong with being the second best league in the world. You don’t see American MLS fans ignorant enough to claim that MLS is equal to the top European leagues, that’s the same as say Euroleague is equal to the NBA.

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  15. Apollo
    11 years ago

    “You don’t see American MLS fans ignorant enough to claim that MLS is equal to the top European leagues, that’s the same as say Euroleague is equal to the NBA.”

    Those types of statements should NOT be allowed here. He is taunting others and constantly bashing European basketball.

    The MLS is rated as around the 30th-50th best league in the world, while Euroleague is rated at least #2 and at #1 by some.

    It is extremely insulting and out of bounds that he is makes those kinds of statements, yet he makes them over and over and he gets away with it.

    He should be banned and if this site had any standards he would be.

    Saying that the #1 or #2 league on the planet is equal to the #30-#50 league on the planet and then taunting, ridiculing, and mocking anyone that disagrees with his lies.

    There is simply no excuse for why this guy is allowed to troll here like this and is never once reprimanded for it.

    And as for FACTS, Kirilenko had better stats most of his years in the NBA than he does in the Euroleague now.

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  16. Phileus
    11 years ago

    “And as for FACTS, Kirilenko had better stats most of his years in the NBA than he does in the Euroleague now.”

    Nah, that’s misleading at best. I think trying to compare stats across leagues is very misleading, but since you said something wrong I have to correct you:

    This year in the Euroleague: 14.0 PPG, 7.2 RPG, 2.6 APG, 1.9 BPG, 1.5 SPG
    Last 5 years in the NBA: 11.5 PPG, 5.0 RPG, 3.3 APG, 1.5 BPG, 1.3 SPG – and that’s not even adjusted for the faster pace of the NBA. At his peak, he had three NBA seasons out of ten (2003-2006) in which his stats were better than they are in the Euroleague.

    Some statistically similar players from recent years in the NBA: Shane Battier, Richard Jefferson, P.J. Brown, Shareef Abdur-Rahim. So, yes, Kirilenko is a very good role player, and at his best, was a borderline All-Star, but he’s not a star in the NBA and has never, ever been close to the MVP discussion. That’s all Gabe and John were trying to say.

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  17. Apollo
    11 years ago

    Gabe and John are full of it and so are you.

    Cherry picking stats for your “arguments’, or just flat out dismissing them because it is a “different league”.

    Then you turn around and pretend some guy is a superstar with basically the same stats in Euroleague.

    Defending and supporting a guy that claims Euroleague is equivalent to MLS and all kinds of other absurd BS.

    You come here to bash Europeans and European basketball and to the huge shame of this site, it is allowed to continue and never stopped.

    This is how absurd you are – Kirilenko at 12 points and 5 rebounds is a “mere role player”, but Kirilenko at 14 points and 7 rebounds is “the best player in Europe”.

    That extra 2 PT field goal and those extra 2 rebounds sure must be freaking awesome. Because it takes him supposedly from a role player to a superstar of unequaled proportions according to you three geniuses.

    All three of you are enormous trolls and total jerks to be making such arguments. You are so damn full of it that it’s not even funny. You and Gabe have ever seen a Euroleague game. You have never ever seen Kirilenko play in Europe. So just shut up. Enough of this trolling trolling trolling a EUROPEAN themed basketball site.

    If you can’t stop it then just stay out of the site. No one wants to read your daily trolling here. NO ONE.

    The Euroleague = MLS thing is so out of bounds it is ridiculous. Gabe should be banned for saying that just once, but he says it time and time again.

    He says Euroleague is to MLS as, NBA is to “best leagues in Europe”……………

    Euroleague is rated at #1 or #2 best league in the world.

    MLS is rated in the 30-50 range. And this tool Gabe keeps making this assertion and insulting and ridiculing anyone that calls him on it.

    Euroleague is the equivalent of La Liga or the EPL, NOT the MLS.

    And all you are doing is trolling the hell out of these forums every single time you support this prick Gabe.

    I’ve really had more than enough of it. I will be sending an email to this site and asking them why Gabe is allowed to keep bashing European basketball and fans here.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      One thing that is missing from he stat argument we are having is that a EUROLEAGUE GAME IS 6 MINUTES SHORTER than an NBA game! So even if somebody has the same stats in Euroleague as the NBA they are a better players in Euroleague because in the NBA they have 6 more minutes to pad their stats. For example, Kirilenko is leading Euroleague in rebounding with 7.2 rpg, in the NBA that would place him 44th in rebounds. The leading scorer in Euroleague, Bo McCalebb, has 16.88 ppg which would place him 38th in scoring in the NBA 11 ppg less than Kobe, and this goes for every stat, so yes Kirilenko’s 11.5 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.5 bpg, 1.3 spg make him a role player in the NBA while his 11.5 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.5 bpg, 1.3 spg make him one of the top players if not the MVP of Euroleague.

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      • Phileus
        11 years ago

        Hahaha Apollo, please show me where I said Kirilenko was MVP material in either league. The author of this article said it, not me. Please don’t mistake me for him. Like you said, I don’t know enough about the Euroleague to make a judgment. But I can point out the blatant mistakes in your posts 😉

        You/ErikK/Michael Zara claimed that Kirilenko was not an NBA role player. FACT: That was true earlier in his career, but it has not been true for years now. He’s undeniably doing better in the Euroleague than he has been in the NBA. Personally, I’m happy for him and hope he does come back to the NBA next season.

        Also, maybe you don’t know, but BiE is in ESPN’s TrueHoop network. So a lot of American hoop fans come here to learn about the game around the world. If BiE didn’t want readers like us, it could just leave TrueHoop 😛

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  18. Gabe
    11 years ago

    So now that I have shown why Kirilenko is a top player in Euroleague and just a role player in the NBA (his stats are just a little better in Euroleague but since everyone’s stats are lower in Euroleague his stats mean a lot more there is a reason why he hasn’t made an all-star game in the NBA in 8 years in the NBA and in Euroleague he is in the MVP discussion, even on this site!)

    About the MLS comparison, I find it hard to believe that MLS is rated in the 30-50 range when the MLS All-Stars play English premier league teams and are 2-3 against them, my point is it is just as outrageous to say that MLS is equal to the top European football leagues as Apollo claiming “that Euroleague is rated at #1 or #2 best league in the world.” Yeah show me a link that shows one person (sports writer or pro player), apart from delusional Euro’s on this blog, that rate Euroleague over the NBA and I will never comment on this site again. I can show you tons of links, many from this site, that show pro players saying the obvious “I was always saying that I would love to play in the best league in the world. So, yes, in the end of the season I will consider all the offers from the NBA again,” Kirilenko told Hein

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  19. RT
    11 years ago

    Gabe is really trolling here and is just totally trashing European basketball. I am all for him being banned.

    If any European fan went on an American basketball site and did 1/10 the trolling Gabe does here, they would be banned.

    Just his posts on this article alone are easily ban worthy.

    And Apollo made the point that Kirilenko is averaging 14/7 in Euroleague and that Gabe is pretending that makes him some kind of super player, but when he averaged 12/5 in the NBA it made him barely more than a scrub.

    If anyone here cannot see how crazy that is and how much of a troll this Gabe guy is, well then they themselves are also trolls.

    Just read this guy’s posts. All he does is say untrue stuff, bash European basketball and then make really rude and insulting comments to all the European posters.

    The site owner really needs to give this guy a ban for a week or two and tell him to stop it. And if this site is simply an NBA marketing piece of ESPN then it needs to say that is what it is and stop pretending to be a European basketball site.

    Because quite honestly, the trolling here by NBA only fans has gotten absolutely totally out of hand. I should make a website and call it “ballinthenba.com” and then only bash the NBA and only promote the Euroleague and then just have a bunch of Euroleague fans post to bash the NBA and taunt NBA fans.

    Because that is basically what is going on here all the time.

    Comparing Euroleague to MLS…………………..really? Seriously? Ban this tool if you have any credibility or if you want this site to be seen as legit by any Europeans.

    I rememeber a long time ago coming here and reading post after post by Gabe where he swore that Josh Childress was the best player in Europe “by far”. Anyone that question him would be insulted and rudely called names and he said they were nuts and crazy and a “Euro homer”.

    The same Josh Childress that was awful the whole time he was with Olympiacos. Childress absolutely flat out SUCKED donkey balls in Olympiacos. They could not wait to get rid of him. The guy was a horrible offensive player and had almost no skills at all.

    He would choke in any big game and he would be absolutely terrible in the Greek playoffs. He is considered the most overpaid and overrated player to ever play in Europe. But I can remember back how Gabe would say over and over that he was the best player in Europe and no one even came close to him.

    He would insult and ridiculous anyone that said it wasn’t true and say they were crazy and delusional and “nuts”.

    This website really needs to ban him or at the very least tell him to sop trolling or he will be banned. He has ruined every discussion on this site ever since I ever read any articles here.

    He comes here for one reason only and that is to troll. I doubt if he would even not be banned from the ESPN forums, that is how much of a troll he is. He is all mad and upset that he is has made other posters angry and that they are rude back to him now. Well after all these years of insulting people, trolling, and bashing all Euroleague and European basketball subjects, what the hell does he expect?

    Gabe is like a bad boil that won’t go away. The owner of the site here needs to also stop pretending that this is a pro European basketball site, if he is going to allow Gabe to act this way here. Because clearly the site is only another NBA marketing gimmick if Gabe can just keep acting this way here.

    It would not surprise me one bit if Gabe actually works for ESPN and gets paid to do this.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Give me a break. I guess you didn’t read my post that proved that stats in Euroleague mean a lot more because the game is 6 minutes shorter so everyone has lower stats. So yes, Kirilenko’s 14/7 make him one of the top players in Euroleague while his 12/5 in the NBA make him an average player. Don’t believe me? Go to the NBA and Euroleague sites and look at the stats page and see where those numbers place him in comparison to other players in each league. Point made.

      As for Childress, yes he was so bad that he was voted All-Euroleague second team, meaning Euroleague itself agreed he was one of the top 4 players for his position that year.

      And you are lying/exaggerating about what I said, I never said Childress was the best player in Europe I just claimed, as did Euroleague with its voting, that he was one of the best, just as I never said Kirilenko was a little more than a scrub I said he was a role player so stop lying about what I wrote.

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  20. Phileus
    11 years ago

    Hahahahaha, oh the irony 😛

    “Just read this guy’s posts. All he does is say untrue stuff, bash European basketball and then make really rude and insulting comments to all the European posters.”

    Let me change two words:

    “Just read this guy’s posts. All he does is say untrue stuff, bash NBA basketball and then make really rude and insulting comments to all the non-European posters.”

    Hey, what a coincidence, that describes you/Apollo/Zoran/whatever perfectly! Look at the first comments on this thread. Apollo insults Gabe three times in it! Wow. Three times! In every single post you guys make, you repeat the same things: so-and-so is an idiot, a troll, should be banned, blah blah – every single time someone disagrees with you, regardless of the tone.

    But it’s okay for European commenters to be childish and immature to non-Europeans, and for European commenters to make lies about NBA players (“Kirilenko had better stats most of his years in the NBA than he does in the Euroleague now”), because this is “Ball in Europe”?

    Now that I think about it, I’m now 75% sure you are a group of bored teenagers who like to make these posts everyday because it’s funny to see how people react 😛 If so, you’re a master troll, hats off to you 😉

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  21. RT
    11 years ago

    Gabe is such a dumb ass words can’t even describe it.

    1. Euroleague games are 8 minute shorter, not 6.

    2. Kirilenko’s stats in Euroleague sure the hell are nothing special. 14/7 in Euroleague isn’t anything unusual or out of this world and anyone saying so is straight out retarded.

    3. Saying that the Euroleague is on par with the MLS is beyond even mere trolling. That’s just straight out psycho talk. I see the mention of people disagreeing as being delusional.

    OK pal, anyone that thinks the Euroleague is on par with the MLS is not just delusional – they are psychotic. Only a person with a paranoid psychotic disorder would compare Major League Soccer with Euroleague Basketball.

    As to the claim that none ever said Euroleague was equal to the NBA – that’s a flat out lie. Chris Kaman said that European basketball at the top was as good as the NBA and harder to play in because it is more physical.

    Joakim Noah said the top European level is better than the NBA playoffs. Mike Fratello said the best European level is better than the NBA. Larry Brown also said the same thing. Another American coach, I can’t remember his name now said that the NBA was only slightly better than the ITALIAN League, not the Euroleague, the ITALIAN League. He should know since he had worked for many years in both leagues.

    Don’t even get me started on how many European players and coaches have said that the Euroleague is better than the NBA. Sure, a lot say the opposite on both sided of the pond, but don’t come here with this crap out

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      1. Okay if it is 8 minutes not 6 then NBA stats are even more padded and having similar stats in Euroleague means you are a lot better in Euroleague than the NBA.

      2. Kirilenko’s stats of 14/7 may not be out of this world but the 7 rebounds is the best in Euroleague and his stats have put him in the conversation of MVP.

      3. I never said Euroleague was on par with MLS, I said comparing Euroleague to NBA is like comparing MLS to the top European leagues.

      4. Considering that they never played in Euroleague what Noah and Kaman were referring to was Eurobasket which is totally different than Euroleague. In fact if you look at the Eurobasket final 9 of the top 10 players with the most minutes were NBA players and btw Team USA made up of entirely NBA players are the champions in Olympics and World Championships which is the highest level of national team play than Kaman and Noah said was so good.

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  22. Zelaya
    11 years ago

    1. Euroleague games are 8 minute shorter, not 6. 48 – 40 = 8, not 6.

    2. Kirilenko’s stats in Euroleague sure the hell are nothing special. Yes, they are very nice and he is playing great, but drop it with this over hype and super exaggeration bit about the level of his play. 14/7 in Euroleague isn’t anything unusual or out of this world and anyone saying so is straight out retarded. Calling him for sure MVP without question is almost a comedy. Maybe he will win it – so what? Bourousis led the Euroleague in rebounding and was in a final four team. He had the highest index rating of any player’s in the final four. He had the highest per minute rating of any player in the Euroleague. He was first in PER. He was first in efficiency per minute. Did Bourousis win the Euroleague MVP? No, he didn’t.

    Kirilenko averaged 14/7 in 29 minutes, wow, you act like he is god or something in Euroleague. OK, so Bourousis averaged 13/7 in 21 minutes.

    Kirilenko = 14/7 in 29 minutes
    Bourousis – 13/7 in 21 minutes

    According to the rocket scientists here Bourousis must then be the Wilt Chamberlain of the Euroleague. Strange of course how Kirilenko’s season is a guaranteed MVP and he is the best ever to play in the league, but poor Bourousis with better stats and a much better season didn’t even win the MVP award. Bourousis should bring a lawsuit and demand an investigation then if Kirilenko wins the MVP.

    It’s really funny though because Gabe has been seen here in this site to call Bourousis a scrub and to say that he isn’t capable or good enough of playing in the NBA. How did he put it? Oh yes, I remember – “if he was good enough to play in the NBA then he would be in the NBA, it’s as simple as that.”

    Yes, not good enough to play in the NBA, but good enough to have a had a season that literally dwarfed Kirilenko’s season this year. But still, no MVP award. Must be a conspiracy against Bourousis.

    3. Saying that the Euroleague is on par with the MLS is beyond even mere trolling. That’s just straight out psycho talk. I see the mention of people disagreeing as being delusional.

    OK pal, anyone that thinks the Euroleague is on par with the MLS is not just delusional – they are psychotic. Only a person with a paranoid psychotic disorder would compare Major League Soccer with Euroleague Basketball.

    As to the claim that no one ever said Euroleague was equal to the NBA – that’s a flat out lie. Chris Kaman said that European basketball at the top was as good as the NBA and harder to play in because it is more physical.

    Joakim Noah said the top European level is better than the NBA playoffs. Mike Fratello said the best European level is better than the NBA. Larry Brown also said the same thing. Another American coach, I can’t remember his name now, said that the NBA was only slightly better than the ITALIAN League, not the Euroleague, the ITALIAN League. He should know since he had worked for many years in both leagues.

    Don’t even get me started on how many European players and coaches have said that the Euroleague is better than the NBA. Sure, a lot say the opposite on both sides of the pond, but don’t come here with this crap about how no one ever said the Euroleague was as good or better than the NBA. Because it’s been said by plenty of NBA players and coaches, even non-European ones.

    4. Josh Childress was a borderline scrub in Europe. So what that he made an all Euroleague 2nd team? What is that supposed to prove? That award is a team award, voted online by fans by 1/4 and is given to the team’s with the best results top usage players.

    There have been plenty of guys make all Euroleague teams that were not even that good of players. Just like there have been plenty of NBA players make all NBA and all star games that were not that good. Seriously, what is wrong with some of you people?

    So let me get this straight – a guy that can’t shoot, can’t create his own shot, can’t score one on one, can’t play offense in a half court, that has almost zero scoring skills, that was dominated 2 straight years in the Greek playoffs by Stratos Perperoglou, and that was almost always left wide open and unguarded by the opposition the whole time was supposed to be one of the best players in Europe? Yeah right that makes sense – my I.Q. has been forever lowered just due to reading this blog topic.

    Childress was the third best small forward on his own team, after Panos Vasilopoulos and Michalis Pelekanos. So apparently, Olympiacos must have had the all time greatest small forward rotation in the history of Europe, seeing how their third best small forward was supposedly one of the best players in Europe – per the superb intellect of Gabe anyway. It’s amazing that the opponents were always leaving him wide open and unguarded. Normally, they don’t treat the best players on the continent that way. I guess Childress must have had really bad BO or something so those defenders just stayed away from him, despite his obvious greatness.

    5. Kirilenko is a great player in any league, VTB, Russia, Euroleague, or NBA. All people claiming he is a role player in the NBA are not only delusional, they are psychotic. They suffer from extreme psychological disorders where they make up an imaginary fairy tale land. A personal reality based off of one’s own personal opinions and paradigm and not facts and reality. They create a false world of imagination and claim it is reality. They are by definition suffering from psychotic delusional disorder. We obviously have several of those frequenting this site.

    6. Kirilenko is a great player, but he isn’t the best player in the Euroleague. The best players in the Euroleague are still Diamantidis, Navarro, and Spanoulis. The flavor of the month for Gabe – Kirilenko, Batum, Kleiza, Childress or whatever NBA player he loves to overrate – none of them are as good as Diamantidis, Navarro and Spanoulis. Which in itself proves how overrated the NBA is. Almost as overrated as the posts of Phileus are.

    It’s nice to know that Bourousis had a far superior season to Kirilenko’s year this year. But really, the guy needs to sue the Euroleague because he was clearly robbed of his rightful MVP award, seeing how he had much better stats and didn’t win it; while AK47 is apparently the messiah figure of the Euroleague.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      You could talk all the crap you want Zelaya. You are just another delusional euro who can’t take the fact that you’re watching the second best league. Childress was given the award by Euroleague, not losers like you, so I think I’ll take official Euroleague award over babies like you. Kirilenko is in discussion for MVP of Euroleague which he never was even close to in the NBA. Again waahhhhhhh

      Man I can’t wait until the Olympics when Team USA gets to whip it’s ass again with all these soft European teams for their third consecutive championship. Why don’t you start your whining and excuses about that now. Man with all these effeminate Euro fans it’s understandable why European players are considered soft in the US. Go take a siesta.

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  23. Zelaya
    11 years ago

    Why did my post register twice at different times with half the post gone and under the wrong name?

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  24. Phileus
    11 years ago

    Wow. Both of you are crazy. I’ll stick to the basketball.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Yeah I know I went a little overboard I just got tired of all the lies, and attacks for me stating the obvious. That doesn’t mean I’m not looking forward to the Olympics. Once the US starts their march towards gold all these trolls will disappear like in 2008 & 2010.

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  25. Goran Ivanovic
    11 years ago

    Childress had in his contract with Olympiakos that he need to play certain amount of minutes in each game. Otherwise he would have been on bench.

    Giannakis the coach of Olympiakos said he would have bench him if not for his contract requirement. It seem that simple things such as truth and fact do not matter to some people here.

    Gabe you go to Interbasket and tell them Childress was one of best 4 players in Europe at his position as you claim and you will be laughing stock there. You are stupid. I have seen you always also make claim Rubio was a big star in Euroleague and this guy was a scrub there.

    You have no credible statements here and you are not going to get respect from any Euro fans when you make such stupid claims all the time in site here. If you keep with this lie that Rubio and Childress were in top players in Euroleague you will never have respect of Euro fans.

    You are just a very stupid person if you do not understand why.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Childress was second team All-Euroleague which is based on a “combination of fan and media voting” so I think I’ll take official Euroleague awards over the rants of people who can’t accept the fact that a back-up NBA player was voted one of the top four players in his position by the media and fans. You don’t understand. You are a nobody. You could post on this board that pigs can fly if you want but Childress will always have his second team All-Euroleague award. No matter how much you hate him you can’t take it away and all the American fans looking up Josh Childress will not see all the bullshit you are spewing they will just see his Euroleague All-Second team award.

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  26. Apollo
    11 years ago

    Childress sucked the whole time with Olympiacos. He sucked almost as much as Gabe posts. I challenged Gabe before to go to interbasket and start a thread with his claims there about Childress and see how they held up but he was to chicken to do so.

    He knows that Childress was considered a bad player by most people in Europe. He KNOWS it. He is just trolling. That’s all he knows how to do. It’s very sad and immature.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Four words: All-Euroleague Second Team

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      • Gabe
        11 years ago

        So therefore some people in Europe, mainly the people who vote for All-Euroleague Teams, which I believe are 25% fans and 75% media considered Childress one of the top four players in his position. And I respect the media’s opinion more than fans, especially a handful of delusional fans on this blog

        And Apollo
        “This is how absurd you are – Kirilenko at 12 points and 5 rebounds is a “mere role player”, but Kirilenko at 14 points and 7 rebounds is “the best player in Europe”.
        That extra 2 PT field goal and those extra 2 rebounds sure must be freaking awesome. Because it takes him supposedly from a role player to a superstar of unequaled proportions according to you three geniuses.”

        Yes, I am so proud of myself by proving my point. The NBA game is 8 minutes longer than a Euroleague game. That means that in the NBA players have almost an extra Euroleague quarter to pad their stats. That’s why in the NBA 12/5 make you a mere role player while 14/7 in Euroleague make you one of the best player in Europe.
        To further prove my point
        12 and 5 in the NBA would place you 105th in scoring and 100th in rebounding while
        14 and 7 in Euroleague would place you 7th in scoring and 1st in rebounding

        So eat crow Apollo. I just made you eat your own words by proving to you that Kirilenko’s stats in the NBA make him a role player while his stats in Euroleague make him the best player. Woohooo I am like Team USA, the best!!!!!!!!!!

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  27. Euro Jon
    11 years ago

    Who the hell is this Gabe a-hole? SHUT UP. Jeezuss.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Tell me to shut up?? Calling me an a-hole? ): What the hell? I just used someones words and used facts to show that they were wrong. Give credit where credit is due. Apollo was sarcastically calling me and two other people geniuses for what we wrote and I was able to prove that we were right and he was wrong and I’m told to shut up??!!! I should be given a pat on the back. It’s not often that you get to win internet argument so convincibly. You may not like what I am saying but at least give me credit for being right, it’s called being honorable.

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  28. Euro Jon
    11 years ago

    Dude J-Chill was like one step up from a scrub in Greece. I have no clue to what the hell you are smoking. I think you need to put down the crack pipe.
    People were laughing at J-Chill in almost all the arenas because he was being left wide open and was barely even hitting the rim on wide open shots.

    You are a total crack head if you think he was among the top players in Europe.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Then I guess all those fans and especially the media who voted J-Chill as All Euroleague second team must be crack heads too. It’s sad and shocking that so many of the European sports media are crack heads. That must mean that crack is a real bad problem in Europe if even those of the respected sports media who vote on awards for athletes are crack heads. I had no idea crack was such a scourge in Europe. 🙁 I feel sorry for you, it is a horrible drug. Maybe that’s why so many people posting here are so delusional.

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      • Gabe
        11 years ago

        You know I did some research because I was thinking how could professional sports writers be crackheads and vote a player who was so bad he was laughed, as All-Euroleague second team. I think there is some confusion, you might have been referring to J-Chill first year in Europe when he wasn’t great but,in his second year when he won the prestigious award he averaged 15.2 ppg shooting .523 in Euroleague and in the Greek League he averaged 15.3 ppg shooting .586 and helped Olympiacos win the Greek Cup. Also in Euroleague, the toughest league in Europe, with J-Chill starting, Olympiacos got to the final for the first time in 15 years. And in Olympiacos’ biggest game in 15 years guess who lead them in scoring and rebounding,? Yes you’re correct, All-Euroleague Second Team star player J-Chill.

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  29. Erik
    11 years ago

    How come Childress only made a SECOND team of Euroleague in the TWO YEARS he played there?

    How come he won only 1 out of SIX titles in his two years there? He won the Greek Cup once, and lost the 5 other titles………

    How come the one title he won, is called the “minor Greek title” or “the little cup” in Greece? How come he could not even manage to win a single Greek League title either year?

    How come he could not win Euroleague either year?

    How come in both years he was in Greece, he played absolutely HORRIBLE with AWFUL stats and play both times in the Greek League Finals against Panathinaikos?

    How come he was outplayed both times in the Greek League Finals by Stratos Perperoglou – someone you say “isn’t good enough to play in the NBA”?

    So according to Gabe, to be one of the definite best players in Europe, all you have to do is be on a team that wins a national cup once in 2 years, never wins a league title or a Euroelague, wins 1 out of SIX titles in two years……..

    That makes a SECOND all Euroelague team ONCE in 2 years……….

    and that plays awful with horrible stats in the Greek Finals both years, while getting outplayed both times by a (according to Gabe) “Greek scrub that is not good enough to make the NBA”………..

    According to Gabe, this = “for sure one of the best players in Europe”.

    You know, Childress had just as good or better stats with the Hawks than he did with Olympiacos in Euroleague. His career NBA stats with the Hawks were just as good or better than his stats in 2 years in Euroleague.

    And he was a 6th man on an NBA playoff team……….

    So, I guess that means he was also one of the best players in the NBA”.

    Because winning a national cup (the small title) once in 2 years is no more than making the playoffs in the NBA in terms of a team accomplishment – in fact it is even less important.

    And his stats with the Hawks were just as good or better, playing similar minutes – so don’t even start that LIE about the minutes that you keep making up here. He played similar minutes and had similar stats.

    So, FACT and LOGIC mean that therefore, IF he was “one of the best players in Europe”, then he must have also been one of the best players in the NBA.

    And Gabe’s standard of “one of the best players in Europe” is absolutely comical. Bragging about how an NBA 6th man from an NBA playoff team made a SECOND team of Euroleague ONCE in TWO years…………….and did not win jack shit other than a measly little cup title ONCE in TWO years.

    Gabe, you are without a doubt, the single biggest idiot that has ever visited this website.

    Go post Childress’ stats in the Greek league Finals both years he was there. Yeah……that’s right, you are AFRAID to do so because you know how much bullshit you are spewing here.

    Your “research” is hitting the crack pipe, just as Jon said.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Made only second team of Euroleague once? Jeez you must have had high standards for him. I’m not saying he was the best player in Euroleague but second team qualifies him as one of top ten players (or top four of his position). And he didn’t win a Greek league title because Olympiacos hadn’t won a Greek League or Euroleague title in 15 years, at least with Childress starting they got to their first Euroleague title in 13 years!

      I can’t believe you’re belittling a second team award. Yes Childress wasn’t the MVP or first team selection but he was second team meaning a top 10 player in Euroleague who was a starter on a team that made in the finals for the first time in 13 years. That’s like me belittling Pau Gasol’s or Nowitzki’s accomplishments in the NBA because they ONLY made all-nba SECOND team last year! So after being voted one of the top ten players in Euroleague and being a starter on a team that made the Euroleague finals (a game in which he led his team in points in rebounds in their most important game in 13 years) he comes back to the NBA and is a bench player on a non playoff team averaging 15.5 minutes and 4 points. What a difference in leagues and don’t even get me started on Kleiza! lol

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      • Gabe
        11 years ago

        Ha! Ha! I just looked up the Greek League and guess what I saw? 2009-2010 Josh Childress Best Five award not to mention the top scorer of the league! So he played so bad in the Greek League he was voted one of the top five players of the league and lead the league in scoring?! Ha! It seems it is you who are lying and hitting the crack pipe Erik. Even his first year in the league he was 5th in scoring and 4th in blocks.

        So yes maybe he had bad final games against Panathinaikos a team that has won the last 15 Greek titles but he lead the Greek League in scoring and was voted best five!

        Man you are so desperate for NBA scrubs to do bad in Europe it must hurt when confronted with the facts with how good they really did.

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  30. Erik
    11 years ago

    What is this guy’s malfunction? He wasn’t one of the best players in Europe with those accomplishments and that performance. Are you mentally handicapped or what?

    Are you just solely coming here to taunt people?

    Greek League stats? WTF………………..

    He had in his contract that he had to play a certain amount of minutes. Do you not have the ability to even do basic reasoning? He was playing, when the rest of the players were the 2nd and 3rd string. it is called STAT PADDING, but I guess you don’t know what that is, since by your comments I doubt you have ever seen a basketball game.

    You will NEVER convince or “prove” that Childress was one of the best players in Europe, no matter how many times you say it or how crazy you are, or how much you troll, or how much you lie here.

    Because everyone that saw him play in Europe knows he pretty much sucked there.

    You have been challenged by a few people now to go post about how Childress was one of the best players in Europe at interbasket’s website. You refuse to do so, because you know you will get owned and then the thread will be posted here and you will be exposed and outed as a troll to the few Americans that are here and do not know any better.

    You refuse to make these claims at interbasket because you know how full of it you are. 100% pure troll material and nothing else.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Okay blame it on his contract or whatever but the facts are he led the Greek League in scoring and was voted, by I assume more official Greek League people than you, as one of the top five players in the league.
      Listen I’m not saying Childress was one of the best players in Europe, I’m just saying in his second year he was one of the top 10 players in Euroleague that year and top five players in Greek League that year which he also led in scoring. Nothing more nothing less. You could say it was stat padding but he led the league in scoring playing on one of the only two real teams in the league that made the final.

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  31. Erik
    11 years ago

    Kleiza??? Kleiza had a little something called micro fracture surgery you dumb ass.

    Kleiza before micro fracture = 17 points a game in Euroleague.

    Klieza after micro fracture = 11 points a game in NBA in LESS MINUTES

    “Don’t even get me started on Kleiza”.

    Yeah, 100% pure healthy and athletic beast (even by NBA standards) Kleiza, with 17 a game in Euroleague

    and bad knee, gimpy, lost most of his athletic ability Kleiza = 11 points a game in the NBA in LESS MINUTES PLAYED.

    Yeah “don’t get started” on Kleiza. You clearly have some kind of psychological disorder.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      About Klieza in the NBA he was a role player, never made any all-star game or all-nba team while in Euroleague he led the league in scoring, was 3rd in rebounds and was voted to All-Euroleague FIRST team and he did this all on a team that made the finals.
      He lead Euroleague in scoring with 17.2 ppg, in the NBA his best year (which was last year with Toronto) he averaged 11.2 ppg. You say more minutes in Euroleague but he averaged 30.2 while his best year in the nba he averaged 26.5 so that’s an average of 6 points more in Euroleague, not to mention 2 more rebounds, in less than 4 extra minutes. And in Euroleague he was the top scorer on the 2nd best team while his best year in the NBA he was the 4th leading scorer on the 3rd worst team in the league. Very different.

      I admit I was wrong. His best year in the NBA was really 2007-2008 with Denver. Yes he averaged a little bit less with 11.1 ppg and 4.2 rpg still he was on a playoff team, although one that lost in the first round. Still he was the 5th top scorer on a team that was swept in the 1st round, so not even a top 8 team.

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  32. Apollo
    11 years ago

    Klieza had micro fracture surgery after he left Olympiacos. The fact that you purposely omit mentioning this is more proof of what a huge liar you are.

    I think we need to start an online petition and ask for signatures to have this website ban you.

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    • Phileus
      11 years ago

      That sounds like a good idea. We could probably get 1000 signatures from your sock puppet accounts alone.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Really? Because he is out for the year now with an injury so this injury comes after his surgery? Did the surgery come before or after he led Lithuania to a bronze in the World Championship and made the all tournament team? But anyway, statistically speaking his best year in the NBA was last year, after he left Olympiacos. His stats in his best year in Denver before the surgery are basically identical to his stats last year with Toronto just that Toronto was a worse team than Denver was.

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  33. Euroleague Is Better Than NBA
    11 years ago

    Gabe does not even watch NBA games. He does not know Kleiza had micro fracture surgery, which proves that he does not even follow the NBA, much less the Euroleague. Just please ignore him. He is obviously just here to troll and harass others and cause flame wars.

    BTW, listing some random players that you think did better in the Euroleague than in the NBA, in order to “prove” (as you claim) that the NBA is better than the Euroleague is a really dumb and invalid argument.

    I can just as easily name a whole bunch of players in recent years that did worse in Euroleague than they did in the NBA. Such as,

    Gary Neal
    Von Wafer
    Ty Lawson
    Ricky Rubio
    Brandon Jennings
    Bostjan Nachbar
    Goran Dragic
    Zaza Pachulia
    Reggie Williams
    Walter Herrmann

    That’s just what comes to mind, I assure you if I actually checked, I can find a whole bunch more. In recent years, MOST NBA players did worse in Euroleague than in the NBA.

    So that is a big time losing argument Gabe, and if you were even a half-way clever troll, you wouldn’t be opening up that can of worms. Because the NBA players have been total crap in Euroleague recently, in a lot of cases.

    But in your warped troll world, you seem to think every NBA players just strolled into Euroleague and “dominated”. Also, jut lol at your Childress jock riding. Olympiacos fans and wanted him soon after he got there and the owners of the team were basically begging him to leave after his second season there, when you claim he is was “clearly one of the best players in Europe”.

    Gabe, if you are not a troll, then you are a serious idiot.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      None of the players you mention have been stars in the NBA, they are all back-up, role players or just solid NBA players (as for Jennings I think that is a little unfair as he only played one year in Europe in what would have been his freshman year in college). There have been no star* player in the NBA who went to the Euroleague and did bad (of course not why would an NBA star* go to an inferior league? the only example of a star going to Europe is D-Will during the lockout and yes he didn’t go to Euroleague he went to a 3rd teir league, but still they retired his jersey after just half a season! On the other hand there were stars* in Euroleague who came to the NBA and were bad: Jasikevicius, Spanoulis or became just role players Anthony Parker, Splitter and NBA role players who came to Euroleague and were stars* Childress, Kleiza, Kirilenko Khryapa, etc..

      *Stars is a very arbitrary term. We can go back and forth arguing who is a star. My definition of a star is someone who has been acknowledged officially by their league as a star (all league 1st, 2nd or 3rd team, MVP, leading scorer, all-star, etc…) So it is not just you or me, random people on a comment section making these claims, it is league officials whose opinions mean a lot more than you or I.

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  34. Phileus
    11 years ago

    You know what, Gabe, I think Apollo is a poor lonely soul, and really enjoys chatting with you here. There’s just no other explanation for why he desperately beckons for you in threads you haven’t made an appearance in, and goes out of his way to prolong pointless arguments. He just misses you when you’re gone. I think he likes you 😉

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Good. I hope he stays around for the whole summer!

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  35. Gabe
    11 years ago

    Luis Scola is also a very good example. Yes he is a very good NBA but he is not a star. He has never been selected to an all-star game or even an all-NBA third team, yet in Euroleague he was selected to an all-Euroleague second team and TWO all-Euroleague FIRST teams. Meaning for two years he was considered, by official Euroleague voters, as one of the top five players in the league (or the top two of his position) while in the NBA he has never been acknowledged as being in the top 25.

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  36. mike
    11 years ago

    Gabe, you can’t argue with flat earthers. To them , crooked lines are straight, and straight lines are crooked. I suggest you give up the fight, and leave these trashy Euros to their delusions.

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  37. mike
    11 years ago

    By the way, here are the facts with Kleiza. According to Wikipedia, in the 07-08 season with Denver, he averaged 11.1 ppg . In 08-09, Linas averaged 9.9ppg. In Europe, in 2010, he averaged 17.2ppg and 6.4 boards. In Jan 2011, with the Raptors, he tore his knee. Straight and simple.

    I believe, these Euro minds are skewed by their hatred, and can’t seem to distinguish anymore between reason and lies.

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  38. Erikk
    11 years ago

    Anyone that thinks Childress was a star in Europe is flat out brain dead. I challenge Gabe ONCE AGAIN to go to Interbasket and make a thread claiming the things there about Childress that he claims here and see what the reaction is.

    He continues to REFUSE to do so.

    Until he does that – he is a TROLL. PERIOD.

    Mike – you just confirmed that Kleiza had microfracture after he left Olympiacos so you just confirmed what others here said. That he had microfracture after he played with Olympiacos. If you can’t figure that out than you are an even bigger moron than Gabe.

    Make the Childress thread at interbasket Gabe – otherwise STFU.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      The whole point is Kleiza had the mircro fracture after he also left Denver too. So his stats in Denver are before the mircofracture.

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  39. Erikk
    11 years ago

    “Luis Scola is also a very good example. Yes he is a very good NBA but he is not a star. He has never been selected to an all-star game or even an all-NBA third team, yet in Euroleague he was selected to an all-Euroleague second team and TWO all-Euroleague FIRST teams. Meaning for two years he was considered, by official Euroleague voters, as one of the top five players in the league (or the top two of his position) while in the NBA he has never been acknowledged as being in the top 25.”

    WTF is wrong with you? How about being named in the all tournament team of the WORLD cup? Huh? How about that idiot. How about leading his team to a gold medal at the Olympics, including a 25 point performance in the gold medal game.

    OH MY GOD you are such an incredible douche bag and RACIST.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      The Olympics and World cup are not the NBA. Kleiza and Kirilenko have also been named to the all tournament team in the World cup, that doesn’t mean they’re NBA stars.

      And I’m a racist? Why because Scola and these European players are white?

      Well I admit that Kevin Love is an NBA star, and so is Nowitzki, Nash and the Gasol brothers.

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  40. Euro Jon
    11 years ago

    Gabe is racist. There is no doubt about it. He is obviously one of these black supremacist “only blacks can play basketball”, “basketball is a black man’s game” racists.

    No matter what, American black players are superior to him. No matter what they are, “vastly superior” to the “slow white stiffs” that play in Europe, the “Euros”.

    He’s not even a slightly bit tactful in his racism.

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    • Phileus
      11 years ago

      In the middle of the night, Apollo wakes up in a frothing rage, and in a fit, smashes out something on his keyboard and hits “submit.” Panting, he stares at the computer screen, clicking the refresh button in the hopes that his friend Gabe will come back and talk to him soon. The waiting is so long, so painful…

      I have to say, this site has gotten a lot more fun since I realized I shouldn’t take it seriously at all 😛

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      How am I a racist and I say that Kevin Love, Nowitzki, Nash and the Gasol brothers are some of the top basketball players in the league. I think you can argue that Love and Nowitzki are even in the top 5.

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  41. mike
    11 years ago

    Phileus, I think you are spot on. I never thought there were a group of people who actually believed in some myths and lies many have posted on this site. The site itself is decent enough, and usually accurate in it’s analysis, but the posters from trashy Euros are anything but. The opinions they espouse are almost worthy of an investigation by the appropriate UN agency dealing in psychology and psychiatry. Perhaps after this full investigation, Gabe will finally be at peace. Whew!

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    • Phileus
      11 years ago

      Everyone’s entitled to an opinion, but you don’t have to go out of your way to be offensive about it every single time you post. You wouldn’t be able to tell from this site sometimes, but it’s possible to have a civilized argument about basketball 😛 Well, maybe not during the Olympics, when patriotism is involved 😉

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  42. Galaad
    11 years ago

    I am greek and a fan of Panathinaikos. I saw every single game Childress played in greece and i can’t stop laughing when i read Gabe claiming that he was one of the best in europe. Keep in mind that in the greek league besides Panathinaikos and Olympiakos all the other teams are hilarious. Yes, Childress was good enough to play against them and seem like a decent player but every time he played against Panathinaikos (the only game in greece that has some meaning) he was absolutely invisible. Just a player that never scared anyone. Sorry Gabe, it’s the truth. J-Chill was nothing special at all. There is no fan of Olympiakos here in greece missing him, i know that very well…

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  43. Erik
    11 years ago

    THANK YOU

    Like the non-trolls here said, Childress sucked in Europe and Gabe is a HUGE troll and a LIAR with all of his claims about how he was one of the best players in Europe.

    If he said this crap on any European basketball forum they would just ban his ass.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Sucked so bad that he was voted all-Euroleague Second Team and Top 5 in the Greek League which he led in scoring.

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  44. mike
    11 years ago

    Phileus, let the Euros calm down and use rational thought like the rest of the basketball world, and stop insulting Gabe and the others, and we’ll calm down too. I’ve been reading this site for some time, and have seen the history. Gabe is usually spot on and totally rational, and the Euro guys twist facts and use insults. C’mon, you know this too. Until they calm down, they are Euro trash, plain and simple.

    Gabe, just keep using the facts, and sound argument. It’s a shame because I like international basketball too. It brings an element lacking in the NBA game, more teamwork, and camaraderie, etc., but facts are facts. Sorry!

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  45. Niko
    11 years ago

    I am from Greece and Olympiakos fan. Childress was crap. The fans were all happy to get rid of him. All he can do is dunk. That is it. By far most overrated player to ever play in Europe. There is no way to say other than Gabe is some kind of nut job.

    I watch in all the games of Childress pretty much and he was the third best small forward of the team behind Panagiotis Vasilopoulos and Michalis Pelekanos. It is amazing thing that third best player in team at his position is one of top players in Europe.

    I am like Galaad. I must laugh for 5 minutes at this Gabe and his craziness. How he can actual it seem to be of belief that a player than can only dunk and do nothing else can be one of the best players in Europe. Gabe is either Childress himself or he is drug addict.

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  46. Niko
    11 years ago

    One more thing do not ever mention Childress with Kleiza, Spanoulis, Kirilenko, Jasikevicius again Gabe. You keep putting him as like he is in same class or discussion with those players.

    He is not even half as good as any of them. I do not care any one way in the matter that he is American. If he was Greek I would say he sucked and was half as good as Perperoglou is. The same Perperoglou that for me I do not think is even good enough to be in our national team.

    Childress is a crap player. That is why he was lame in Olympiacos and that is why he sits on the bench with the Suns. Because he can do nothing but dunk.

    Do not ever mention his name again with such players as Spanoulis, Jasikevicius, Kirilenko. Because you are being very insultling. How you claim he is in same level with such players. You must be the mother of Childress or his girlfriend or something.

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    • Phileus
      11 years ago

      Okay, sure. If we let you say that, then let us say that Spanoulis just wasn’t good enough to start for the Rockets. Let us say that Kirilenko is just a role player in the NBA at this point of his career, and even at his best, was never even close to MVP level. Let us say that NBA rejects who thrive (and, yes, dominate) in the Euroleague really are just bench-level players when they come to the NBA.

      Also, if you disagree with Gabe’s arguments, then try saying, “Trust us – the Euroleague media is stupid, we fans are correct, and so the MVP/All-Euroleague awards mean nothing.” Tell us that the reason we’re wrong to say that Trajan Langdon “dominated” the Euroleague is not because we’re “stupid NBA-only trolls blah blah blah should be banned from the site,” but rather, because the Euroleague media is, again, stupid for giving undeserved praise to players you think are mediocre.

      The reason we can’t take any of you seriously is because we respond with facts and statistics, and you respond with insults. Then again, maybe you don’t want to be taken seriously 😛

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  47. Appollo
    11 years ago

    Phileus is just as bog of a troll as Gabe is. He proved it with that last post.

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  48. Appollo
    11 years ago

    Big of a troll. In fact he is much worse than Gabe. Pretending to not be a troll and then he reveals his real self.

    This site needs to ban both of them immediately.

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    • Phileus
      11 years ago

      trolololol

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      • Phileus
        11 years ago

        “The reason we can’t take any of you seriously is because we respond with facts and statistics, and you respond with insults. Then again, maybe you don’t want to be taken seriously :P”

        Very next post:
        “Phileus is just as bog of a troll as Gabe is.”

        I thought I should mention that I actually laughed out loud at this. I am now 100% convinced that you just get a kick out of enraging people online, which makes you a master troll 😉 Well-played, but now I feel silly for trying so earnestly to talk to you on an intelligent level 😛

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  49. mike
    11 years ago

    Hey , stop this banning stuff. I’ve been reading this site for a year now, and the site pretty much dovetails the arguments of Gabe and Phileus. They will not be banned. This is a reasonable site. No crazy Euro basketball is better insanity, in fact, it’s the reverse. This site pretty much acknowledges what the entire world knows: NBA ball has the best teams in the world because the best players, for the most part, play in it. Maybe you guys should ban yourselves!

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  50. John
    11 years ago

    I am American. I am an NBA fan. I follow the Euroleague also. What Gabe and his alias trolls claim here is just absurd nonsense. I can’t believe this site allows it to go on.

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  51. Aleksandar Zoran
    11 years ago

    look Apollo A.k.A. Erikk and now A.K.A. John also you are a miserable human being, a waste of oxygen in this earth, HOW DARE YOU COME HERE WITH YOUR FANATIC AGENDA TRYING TO ASSASSINATE OTHER People’s CHARACTERS JUST BECAUSE YOU DON’T AGREE WITH THEM?

    HOW MUCH OF A SCUNTBAG DO YOU HAVE TO BE TO PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE’S CHARACTERS JUST BECAUSE???.

    YOU DISGUST ME.

    WHY DON’T YOU TRY TO HAVE AN INTELLIGENT, WELL ARTICULATED ARGUMENT FOR ONES, instead of just insulting and cursing at people because you have been Out-debated? is that too much to ask of you? YOU CAN’T EVEN SPEAK/WRITE descent English and you are the one calling everyone else a retard?? oh please you make my eyes want to puke whenever I read you garbage

    is your level of education so low? don’t they teach you to be tolerate of others opinions in your country? if not them wow your countries educational systems sucks, since you kids don’t even know what freedom of speech is over there.

    and by the way “freedom of speech” is not a pizza topping or a dressing just so you know.

    insulting and cyber-bulling other people in a blog site, how pathetic, is your life really that meaningless that you need to bully people you have never even meet? and the sad part about it is that you are probably one of those fat kids that are bully in school every day and in your grandmother’s basement.

    wow just a sad soul, man i feel so sad for you, I honestly pity you, I really do

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  52. Aleksandar Zoran
    11 years ago

    I did not make these comments. Someone is pretending to be and using my name as their alias. I find this to be very childish behavior. I also saw that in another thread they did the same. Please grow up.

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  53. Aleksandar Zoran
    11 years ago

    the 2nd comment wasn’t mine the first was though

    it’s obvious that the second was Apollo a.k.a Erikk, A.K.A. Zoran, A.K.A. John, how pathetic.

    everyone here knows I don’t talk like that, anyways.
    Apollo trying to copy my nick, wow your level o patheticness has gone beyond imagination

    grow a pair, man

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  54. Apollo
    11 years ago

    I think it’s time for someone to take a timeout.

    BTW, A Zoran had made posts here before supporting Euroleague and then suddenly out of nowehere he became another gabe disciple. So, yeah.

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  55. Aleksandar Zoran
    11 years ago

    yeah Appollo Zoran is one of your numerous alias, and yeah you have in fact used that name to post here your eurocentric Nazi views about the Euro league and your anti-ameircan B.S. but just because you used Zoran as one of your multiple alias does not mean that I can’t included that name as part of my own nickname after all that’s my real name and I had no control over that

    and stop using my name to post you garbage, act with more class. you know very well the second post wasn’t mine and so does everyone else

    but I do owe you and apology though I got carried away with my first response, and I said thing I did not mean and I shouldn’t have said but the thing is that you talk so much crap it’s just that you talk and bs that I just had enough and I couldn’t control myself, I got tired of you insulting people and what did I do, I insulted you, that wasn’t right even though you do deserved a lot of what i said to you, BUT I AM GOING TO TAKE THE HIGHER ROAD HERE AND BE THE BETTER MAN AN APOLOGIZE, even if you don’t deserve it.

    OH, and by the way, you calling me a Gabe puppet, is just laughable. I have called out Gabe a couple of times for things that I though he had pull out of his ass without actually knowing what he was talking about like in this discussion: ” http://bietemp.wpengine.com/national-teams/russia-london-olympics-jetlag-alexey-shved-6115/#comment-46702″

    and said and I quote ” Gabe no offense but your ranking is beyond stupidity

    Macedonia is the worst team in this tournament according to you? WOW

    and to put Venezuela…above The Dominican Republic??? what the hell?
    do you know that Venezuela has not beat The Dominican Republic since 1999, think you should do a little research before you give an opinion like that

    and Angola over Puerto Rico>/ when as the last time they beat PR?

    and lastly there is no way Asian teams are better than a European team, they can’t even beat African teams in a consistent basis, i would even take a team like Finland over the best Asian tea (whether it’d be China, Iran or whichever) any day.

    I think you are one of those Americans that only watch that Olympics and disregard every other tournament, is either that or your ranking was meant to be sarcastic, in which case I’m sorry but I did not get it. the other option is that you are pulling that ranking out of you ass and you only knowledge of basketball is that the NBA is better than anything else in the world, and if that were to be the case then that is just sad sad sad sad !!!!!!!
    ”

    yeah I said all of that to him so how the hell am I a Gabe disciple? like I said before everyone that you don’t agree with you just insult them because you can’t articulate a well-thought counter argument

    and seriously stop using my name Apollo if anything you are just showing people how low you can get to be

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  56. Aleksandar Zoran
    11 years ago

    yeah Appollo Zoran is one of your numerous alias, and yeah you have in fact used that name to post here your eurocentric Nazi views about the Euro league and your anti-ameircan B.S. but just because you used Zoran as one of your multiple alias does not mean that I can’t included that name as part of my own nickname after all that’s my real name and I had no control over that

    and stop using my name to post you garbage, act with more class. you know very well the second post wasn’t mine and so does everyone else

    but I do owe you and apology though I got carried away with my first response, and I said thing I did not mean and I shouldn’t have said but the thing is that you talk so much crap it’s just that you talk and bs that I just had enough and I couldn’t control myself, I got tired of you insulting people and what did I do, I insulted you, that wasn’t right even though you do deserved a lot of what i said to you, BUT I AM GOING TO TAKE THE HIGHER ROAD HERE AND BE THE BETTER MAN AN APOLOGIZE, even if you don’t deserve it.

    OH, and by the way, you calling me a Gabe puppet, is just laughable. I have called out Gabe a couple of times for things that I though he had pull out of his ass without actually knowing what he was talking about like in this discussion: ” http://bietemp.wpengine.com/national-teams/russia-london-olympics-jetlag-alexey-shved-6115/#comment-46702″

    and said and I quote ” Gabe no offense but your ranking is beyond stupidity

    Macedonia is the worst team in this tournament according to you? WOW

    and to put Venezuela…above The Dominican Republic??? what the hell?
    do you know that Venezuela has not beat The Dominican Republic since 1999, think you should do a little research before you give an opinion like that

    and Angola over Puerto Rico>/ when as the last time they beat PR?

    and lastly there is no way Asian teams are better than a European team, they can’t even beat African teams in a consistent basis, i would even take a team like Finland over the best Asian tea (whether it’d be China, Iran or whichever) any day.

    I think you are one of those Americans that only watch that Olympics and disregard every other tournament, is either that or your ranking was meant to be sarcastic, in which case I’m sorry but I did not get it. the other option is that you are pulling that ranking out of you ass and you only knowledge of basketball is that the NBA is better than anything else in the world, and if that were to be the case then that is just sad sad sad sad !!!!!!!
    ”

    yeah I said all of that to him so how the hell am I a Gabe disciple? like I said before everyone that you don’t agree with you just insult them because you can’t articulate a well-thought counter argument

    and seriously stop using my name Apollo if anything you are just showing people how low you can get to be, ok?

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  57. Kane
    11 years ago

    IMO the NBA is the #1 basketball league in the world; I really don’t see how that can be argued, just based on overall talent level (and the fact that the absolute all-time greats have almost all played there). That said, I think it’s pretty simplistic to look at how Kirilenko or Scola (or Spanoulis) have done in the NBA and then say that obviously the Euroleague has much lower standards.

    Play is very different in the Euroleague, and I absolutely believe that there are NBA all-stars who would not be top players in the Euroleague. The performances by international teams (such as Greece, Argentina, Spain, etc.) mostly made up of Euroleague players over the past decade or so have proven that the top Euroleague players are quite competitive vs. the top NBA players.

    Furthermore, Kirilenko has been one player I always felt could have been a NBA superstar if the offense had run through him and he had really been a first option. I’m not going to go do the exact statistical work again, but I remember making this argument a while ago to somebody and extrapolating what AK’s ppg and apg stats would be with the sort of usage % a first-option player gets (as opposed to AK’s rather low usage % on Utah). I didn’t even raise the usage that much… it wouldn’t have been enough to put him in the top 20 in the league… however the statistical difference was significant. He would have averaged about 22-6 to go along with his 7-8 rpg and his 2bpg/2spg during his peak years. Those #s on a good team would have almost surely made him 1st-team All-NBA. Maybe even an MVP candidate during one especially strong year, or a season when Utah had a great record. Instead, he was never more than the 3rd option… a big mistake by Sloan IMO.

    Dragic this year is another example of a player who is showing his potential once he gets the chance and gets the ball in his hands. Very few people thought he could do this, but he’s playing as well as any PG in the league (except maybe Paul) since he became Houston’s starter. Put Spanoulis on a team where he’s the star and first option and see how he does… I bet he would do pretty damn well; the situation in Houston that he trouble adjusting to was a horrible situation for him. There are just many, many more variables in play in regard to who becomes a star player than most people realize or admit.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      This Kane is able. I agree with most of what you are saying. From what people are posting here though it seems that Kirilenko is not a first option playing with CSKA yet he is still putting up. And your comment about international teams made up of Euroleague players being competitive with the top NBA players is true but it also proves why the NBA is the top league. Most of the top players on international teams that have actually won gold in those competitions, namely Argentina and Spain went on to the NBA.

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  58. mike
    11 years ago

    Kane, , you’re on the right track. I agree with you that statistics on both sides of the pond do not always translate since NBA ball and international ball can be different in many instances. I like your example with Spanoulis. I’m mostly an NBA fan, but I do watch international ball, and rooted for Spanoulis in Houston. Really, you’re correct, Spanoulis wasn’t given enough of a chance in Houston, but it was also because of his attitude of entitlement. If he stuck with it 2-3 years, maybe he could be that strong big point guard in the mold of Billups. He should give the NBA another chance, and fulfill his self proclaimed dream of playing in the world’s best league! .

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  59. Niko z
    11 years ago

    Spanoulis isn’t ever going to play in the NBA because he did not have the respect of the coach or manager in Houston and he learned that it’s not worth wasting your prime career in the NBA.

    He missed a season of Euroleague in which his team won the Triple Crown in Europe and he had been the best player on the team the year before. He lost a Triple Crown, an All-Euroleague selection, probably a Final Four MVP and Greek MVP,, and maybe even a Euroleague MVP, by sitting out that year in the NBA. So it greatly hurt his European career. Which in the end could keep him from being considered as one of the all time best ever Euroleague players.

    He also lost a lot of money as he took over $1 million less to play in the NBA. On top of this, he is now forever made fun of, mocked, ridiculed, patronized by idiots like this punk Gabe and Mike here. Called a “NBA scrub”, “not good enough to hang with the big boys”, “can’t make it in the NBA”, etc.

    He gets forever insulted and ridiculed by a bunch of drooling retards that have never seen him play and that otherwise would have never even heard of him. But they now have to bash and insult him just to keep their American xenophobic basketball fantasies alive.

    In addition to this, Spanoulis got insulted and made fun of by Van Gundy and his GM Morey in the Houston media. Making fun of his mom and mocking her, while she was suicidal. He has the fans of Houston to this day mock him and ridicule him at their retarded redneck inbred racist site clutchfans.net

    He has US sports “media and analysts” refer to him as “an NBA Euro bust:”, “an example of a Euro superstar that couldn’t translate his game to the NBA because he was not athletic enough”. He had his chance to ever get a good place in the NBA RUINED and DESTROYED by Van Gundy, who told all the other coaches that he was a head case.

    This is what he got for pursuing his “NBA dream”. It has practically destroyed his whole career, totally ruined forever his reputation and his status, ended any chance of another NBA team wanting him, lessened his European career, and cost him over $1 million dollars.

    Then scum bags like the morons here are still making fun of him, calling him “not good enough for the NBA”, “isn’t athletic enough. even though Team USA had to double team him much of the second half in the 2008 game, because no one could guard him one to one in 2006, or the first half of 2008.

    “Not athletic enough for the NBA”, but athletic enough to break the ankles of Wade, Paul, Williams, Kobe, Hinrich time and time again. They tried to use Kobe to “shut him down” in 2008, and that lasted about 15 minutes, before they started double teaming him.

    The NBA did the same kind of sabotaging shit to Rakocevic, Petrovic, Jasikevicius, Macijuaskas, Navarro. I have seen it several times. The NBA is scared shitless that an actual REALLY top level European guard is going to show the American b-ball fans how low level the NBA guards are.

    Only scrubs from Euroleague like Jennings, Rubio, Lawson, Dragic are allowed to play normally in the NBA, without their teams sabotaging them, due to NBA conspiracy against Euroleague. Dragic is mentioned here. Well, Dragic is like Rubio, they are at best average level point guards for the standard of the Euroleague. The Americans would all shit their pants if they ever saw a real top European guard unleashed in the NBA. So the NBA won’t allow it to happen.

    The freaking NBA tried to sabotage Pretrovic’s career….Adelman, “he isn’t athletic enough for the NBA”, “his game does not translate”, etc. All that same sabotaging. Drazen finally got a lucky shot in New Jersey . Barkley and Kenny Smith said he was the best international player ever – better than Olajuwon even. Miller said he is the best shooter of all time. Jordan said he was the only guy that ever went head to head with him even in an NBA game.

    He could have been benched by the Blazers, left back to Europe, and to this day retards like Gabe and Mike and Phileus would be saying, “look at one of the all time best ever Euroleague players that could not even sniff the court in Portland, it proves the Euroleague is crap.”

    I have ZERO respect for any of these people that are here to just make fun of European basket and its players and that all they can do is LIE LIE LIE and that they are so rude to others.

    Whatever Apollo did say to others here he is in his right with justification in it. Ever since 2010 World Basket I have been reading here and I have seen almost 2 years of Gabe lying and being a dick to almost everyone, except a few people that obviously have not once seen a Euroleague game.

    I give this comment from Gabe as evidence, “Rubio and Childress were easily among the best players in Euroleague and anyone that denies that is just jealous of America and hates our freedoms. They are so anti-American that they just hate anything associated to America and that is the NBA. They all loved Rubio in Europe and now that he is in the NBA they say he sucks” Pathetic, delusional Euro bastards.”

    I would like to see him tell me this in person.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Niko Z: not only are you a delusional, insane, paranoid lunatic you are also a liar. That comment from me is totally made up by you. Show the link of the thread where I said that nonsense! I never said Rubio was easily one of the best players in Europe. I also certainly never said anyone who denies that “is jealous of America and hates our freedoms”! I mean that is so stupid it is comical. I think you’re confusing me with George Bush. So making up some outlandish quote that even the most ignorant stereotypical redneck American wouldn’t say and attributing it to me shows how insane and desperate you are.

      So you being a liar should end the conversation but I’ll respond. About Spanoulis, there are two sides to every story. Yes he might have been misused and not given a “proper” chance but as mike said he had a strong sense of entitlement and felt that he deserved to be a star in the NBA because he was a star in Euroleague. And the next year the Spurs had his rights and wanted him to play but he bolted to Europe.

      And about this paranoid delusion that the NBA is purposely sabotaging European guards because they are scared to show “the American b-ball fans how low level the NBA guards are” is so comical it is laughable. NBA coaches and GMs want to win. To think they would purposely sabotage players who they think can help them win because of some conspiracy with the NBA is crazy. If that is true than how about Tony Parker, the Gasol brothers, Nowitzki and the other European players who are given many minutes in the NBA. If those players Rakocevic, Petrovic, Jasikevicius, Macijuaskas, Navarro were good enough their coaches would have given them the minutes (and for Navarro he averaged over 25 mins a game and made the all-rookie 2nd team so I’m not sure how he was sabotaged)

      And also talking about Spanoulis against USA in 2008, Greece lost that game by 23 pts so then the rest of his team must have been really bad and you say they had to double team him in the 2nd half because no one could cover him? Well they were up by 19 at the end of the half so he couldn’t have been hurting them that much! And how did Spanoulis and Greece do in the 2010 WC. Oh yeah, 11th place. What a super star!

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  60. Phileus
    11 years ago

    The reality is that it’s difficult for superstars to make adjustments to any new league.

    Why? Because they’re used to being superstars. They’re used to having the team revolve around them. They’re not used to paying their rookie dues, having to earn a spot, learning a system in which they’re not treated like the best player as they were before. When you change the system completely – let alone change the culture you are living in – you become frustrated and miserable.

    Some players can tough it out and accept a lesser role and thrive in it (Luis Scola, Tiago Splitter). For others? It’s not worth it, and I can’t blame them. Why bother putting in your dues in a place you don’t even like (Spanoulis, Navarro), when you can have a better-paying, more fulfilling career back home? It’s better to be a God in a Spain that it is to be a sixth man in the NBA.

    It’s the same reason a lot of American NBA players don’t do well when they go abroad. They’re not used to having to put in their dues. They’ve already “made it” in their minds, and so they have the same sense of entitlement. “Why do I have to do these drills? I’ve already proven myself.” It’s the exact same mentality.

    Non-star players who go abroad know they’re one bad practice away from no longer having a basketball career, so they’ll work their tails off and make something of their careers. That’s why I totally agree with what Kane said: there are NBA All-Stars who couldn’t thrive abroad.

    So I agree with Niko on one slight point: failure and success is not always about talent. But your conclusion (“OMG WTF NBA IS AFRAID OF EUROPEAN GUARDS OMG”) is ridiculous. The NBA would go out of its way to hype up foreign stars so that it could increase interest in its product.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      I disagree on the NBA All-Stars not thriving abroad. To be an NBA star you have to be so talented that you would thrive in any league. It’s totally theoretical argument though. The NBA is so much more prestigious and better league than any in Europe that an NBA star would never go to Europe although European stars come to the NBA all the time. US college and high school stars sometimes go across the pond but never NBA stars. The closest we had was a once in every ten year event of the lock-out but the only real star who came over was D-Will. Yes, he didn’t go to Euroleague, he went to a Turkish team in a third tier league, still after playing half a season they retired his jersey in the rafters, you think they would have done that for Spanoulis? lol

      And that’s the big difference in the leagues and why every player wants to make it in the NBA. Yes Navarro might be a God in Spain but outside Europe no one, except hardcore international basketball fans like us, have heard of him. If you make it as a star in the NBA, like Kobe or Lebron, not only are you a God in the US but also in China, Europe, South America, the whole world in fact.

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      • Phileus
        11 years ago

        Gabe, it’s not an easy argument. There are noticeably different styles of play and thus different skillsets required. I honestly don’t think players like Blake Griffin or Dwight Howard would do well abroad. Look at how Howard struggled against Spain in the last Olympics, and kept losing his temper – how embarrassing. I think pure athleticism gets you further in the NBA than it does abroad; on the flip side of the coin, world-class athleticism is also a prerequisite for succeeding in the NBA. For the same reason, drive-and-draw players would be less effective.

        For most of the other swing players, though, I’d agree with you, especially after watching Durant spank the rest of the world in 2010 hahaha.

        I disagree with your take on Navarro. Sometimes your home is all you need. You don’t need to take over the world. Sometimes, the situation isn’t right and you just don’t need to prove yourself to fans you don’t care about (i.e. American fans like us), especially if you have a family’s happiness to worry about. There’s absolutely no doubt that Navarro is an NBA starter-level player. He proved it in his rookie year. Could you imagine him on the Lakers? But why should he bother? I’d take a higher salary in a place I love over a lower salary, trying to impress people I don’t give a damn about, in a place I don’t much care for, any day.

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        • Gabe
          11 years ago

          Maybe Howard and Griffin would not be as successful as they are in the NBA but they would not be struggling for minutes minutes in Euroleague. One of the main weaknesses of Euroleague, compared to the NBA, is big men. There are no Dwight Howards in Europe. And yes Dwight maybe struggled against Spain but he was the starting center on a team that went undefeated and won a gold medal. He also had 20 and 10 against Germany so it’s not like he struggled the whole tournament.

          As for Navarro he has a higher salary now than he would have had in the NBA but if he became one of the top NBA players he would make 10X what he is making now.

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  61. John
    11 years ago

    John says:
    April 20, 2012 at 1.29pm
    I am American. I am an NBA fan. I follow the Euroleague also. What Gabe and his alias trolls claim here is just absurd nonsense. I can’t believe this site allows it to go on.

    I did not post this it it is a different John or someone impersonating.

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  62. Aleksandar Zoran
    11 years ago

    yeah john we know it wasn’t you, don’t worry about it it’s just Apollo stealing nicknames again

    “what a class act that guy”

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  63. RT
    11 years ago

    Gabe says:
    April 23, 2012 at 4.24am

    I disagree on the NBA All-Stars not thriving abroad. To be an NBA star you have to be so talented that you would thrive in any league. It’s totally theoretical argument though. The NBA is so much more prestigious and better league than any in Europe that an NBA star would never go to Europe although European stars come to the NBA all the time. US college and high school stars sometimes go across the pond but never NBA stars. The closest we had was a once in every ten year event of the lock-out but the only real star who came over was D-Will. Yes, he didn’t go to Euroleague, he went to a Turkish team in a third tier league, still after playing half a season they retired his jersey in the rafters, you think they would have done that for Spanoulis? lol

    And that’s the big difference in the leagues and why every player wants to make it in the NBA. Yes Navarro might be a God in Spain but outside Europe no one, except hardcore international basketball fans like us, have heard of him. If you make it as a star in the NBA, like Kobe or Lebron, not only are you a God in the US but also in China, Europe, South America, the whole world in fact.

    ———————————————————————————————

    This site needs to give this guy a week or two ban until he can learn that this is not realgm or insidehoops.

    This guy is the cause of every single argument in this site and it is posts like the one above that cause them, and rightly so I might add.

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  64. RT
    11 years ago

    Maybe Howard and Griffin would not be as successful as they are in the NBA but they would not be struggling for minutes minutes in Euroleague. One of the main weaknesses of Euroleague, compared to the NBA, is big men. There are no Dwight Howards in Europe. And yes Dwight maybe struggled against Spain but he was the starting center on a team that went undefeated and won a gold medal. He also had 20 and 10 against Germany so it’s not like he struggled the whole tournament.

    As for Navarro he has a higher salary now than he would have had in the NBA but if he became one of the top NBA players he would make 10X what he is making now.

    ——————————————————————————————————

    This guy is just such a moron. I can’t figure if he just really stupid, a huge troll, delusional, or all three.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Ain’t that the pot calling the kettle black? I am a moron for posting the truth? By you calling me a moron it means that you are just really stupid, a huge troll, delusional, or all three. But I forgot where you come from Navarro makes as much Lebron and Kobe, Euroleague All-Decade Team and All-Euroleague First Team awards are given to role players, Dwight Howard would struggle for minutes in Euroleague, black is white, night is day and blah blah blah.

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  65. mike
    11 years ago

    Dwight Howard and Blake Griffin would be great players in Europe, but they would play a little differently and post monster numbers in blocks and rebounds, and average perhaps 11-12 points per game just on pure athleticism. No player in Europe comes even close to the athletic level of these two.

    I’m beginning to like this site just because you get to hear weird Euro trash opinions that seem to rival anything from the Twilight Zone. Wow! .

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  66. Aleksandar Zoran
    11 years ago

    I think that Howard and Griffin would not adapt to the European game, there is just not much running at all, and fast breaks are really hard to come by to be honest, you need finesse as a bigman in Europe to be able to score over you opponents you need to have a lot of post move, a lot of pump and fakes, a turns, be able to score with both hands, etc. Because you can you grab a rebound and run to the other side of the court and dunk. by the time to get there the other side of the court will be full of opposing players already because the European court’s dimension are so small. So a big man would have to have pretty decent fundamentals of setting screens, pick an roll etc. Athleticism along in that kind o game won’t save your butt like it haves to a lo of scrubs in the nba that are in the league simple because the can jump higher and springs like a mother fucker, like Shannon Brown in its first yeas as a Bobcats before the lakes coaches taught him how to shoot the ball

    Also there is a lot more hard contact and fouling going on in Europe, which means that Griffin and Howard would go to the free throw line constantly, which would make them even more inefficient. And they both have a reputation of constantly complaining to the ref abaout contact, they would get T’up SO EASILY IN Europe IF THEY START RUNNING their mouth
    A lot of big men in the US do not have those fundamentals because of the stupid AAU system that exist, were all they ask for you is to dunk on people, and there is little drilling of fundamentals

    a big that could easily excel in Europe is AL Jefferson and I think Carl Landry would be a super star over there too if given the right opportunity.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Hmmm. I just bring up Howard because I remember when then defending Euroleague champions came to North American and lost both exhibition games in 2008, after beating CSKA by 28 points this is what Magic coach Stan Van said:

      “I mean the obvious difference in that game is Dwight Howard. I don’t think they have too many guys like him in the Euroleague.”
      and if think that is only an ignorant NBA coach’s opinion this is what two time Euroleague Coach of of the Year, Ettore Messina, said about the game:

      “We had a very tough meeting, especially from the first quarter with their physical intensity. They are much better athletes, I would say, in all five positions on the court. And this made it difficult, not only to defend them, but to score on them. It required, I think, more than 24 minutes to at least understand where and how we could get a little advantage on offense and where and how we had to close gaps on defense.

      The good thing was that the team continued to play. This is not something to underevaluate, because in Europe this is a winning team.

      (Dwight) Howard just to give you an example looked like Godzilla at one time. He’s huge. And just for you to have an idea, we are very big team in Europe. Physically we are very big usually. Usually we overwhelm opponents because we are much taller, we have more weight, we have more quickness. Here we look like Bambi. Siskauskus he’s a first level European player. And Turkoglu is very different from when he was in Turkey. His chest is like a television set. In every position you find somebody that is bigger, faster or even bigger and faster. And honestly it was a problem. A big, big problem.”

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      • Phileus
        11 years ago

        First of all, those exhibitions are almost 100% meaningless. Next, it was played under NBA rules, not FIBA rules, with American refs and not Apollo-like refs, all of which I’m sure you’d agree make a huge difference.

        Anyway, I’m not saying that Howard and Griffin would be scrub non-starters abroad, just that they wouldn’t be as effective as they are in the NBA (going back to Kane’s point that not all NBA All-Stars would be great in the Euroleague). Howard will be a great defender wherever he goes, that’s for sure. But for the reasons Aleksander Zoran mentioned, they’re not as natural fits for FIBA play as, say, LMA or Kevin Love are.

        I guess just seeing Howard in the last Olympics really left a lasting (bad) imagine in my mind.

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  67. RT
    11 years ago

    Gabe you are a jack ass. PERIOD

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  68. RT
    11 years ago

    Kobe Bryant after Barca beat the Lakers: “Phil said what? I have no idea why he says this stuff he says sometimes. NBA coaches…I think they just say this stuff just to stir up controversy.

    Of course they could play in the NBA. Yes, easily. I think they could make the playoffs in the NBA, easily, without question.”

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Ettore Messina was not an NBA coach.

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      • Phileus
        11 years ago

        Gabe, you are a complete idiot and a troll who is on some serious drugs. I can’t believe that you haven’t been banned yet.

        But anyway, single exhibition games say nothing, as I keep saying over and over again. Could a Euroleague team make the NBA playoffs? That can’t be answered by one meaningless game, especially given that the NBA regular season schedule is about twice as long as what Euroleague teams have to play (meaning again that endurance/physical talent are more important in the NBA).

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        • Gabe
          11 years ago

          Yeah I wasn’t saying anything about a Euroleague team making the playoff or the exhibition game. I was just commenting how a respected Euroleague coach who won two Euroleague coach of the Year titles, commented that Howard was so big he made his team, which was which was physically big by Euroleague standards, look like Bambi. So IMHO I feel that Howard would dominate across the pond but that’s just MHO.

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          • Phileus
            11 years ago

            Haha, well unfortunately we won’t get to see him redeem or not redeem himself at the Olympics this year. I’m hoping I won’t be proven wrong if Team USA’s unimpressive center position gets exploited, leading to a loss :p

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  69. Aleksandar Zoran
    11 years ago

    LOL the last to comment by Phileus were obviously made by Apollo

    hahaha Apollo when will you grow up man? it’s not even funny anymore it’s juts pathetic honestly

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    • Phileus
      11 years ago

      Haha, no? THey were made by me 😛 I just say that “drugs, ban, troll” stuff to Gabe in a joking way every time I disagree with him on a minor point. Sorry if it was unclear, Gabe 😉

      In my last post, I meant that with Howard’s recent surgery, I won’t get to see him in international play for a long time, so I can’t test my theory of his relatively limited effectiveness against Gabe’s idea that he’ll dominate on his athleticism.

      Not sure why else you thought I was trolling… Do you think Team USA’s center position is very good? Who do we have? We have Chandler, but what else? I’m not sure small ball will work two tournaments in a row, especially since our star center Lamar Odom from 2010 is no longer the same player 😛

      And my Euroleague team/NBA playoff comment was to Apollo. He’s claimed before that those exhibition games where NBA playoff teams lose to Euroleague teams prove that they’re on competitive levels. I’ve always said that those games are totally worthless for learning anything real, especially something like playoff contention, which requires not one game of excellence but a whole 82-game season’s worth of good play.

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      • Gabe
        11 years ago

        Bosh and Love and also play center.

        And talking about the exhibition games do you know that since 2003 NBA teams are 36-7 against Euroleague teams in those exhibition games? I don’t care what rules/refs/arenas those games are played in, it clearly shows domination

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  70. mike
    11 years ago

    What Kobe said about Fc Barce making the NBA playoffs was diplomatic, to say the least. Jackson was asked if Barce can compete in the NBA, and he said Barce was an inferior team and would not make the Playoffs. Kobe is a businessman, and sells sneakers all over the world, was trying to be nice. But no, no Euroleague team using NBA rules would make the NBA playoffs. International rules, maybe.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Jackson didn’t say they were inferior he was asked if they would be competitive in the NBA in an 82 game season and he responded “no” and

      “They played really well [Thursday], but they’re not up to the competition that we face night in and night out,” Jackson said. “But that’s not taking anything away from them. The physicality of our game, the size of our players, those are things that night in and night out are very difficult to contest.”

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  71. mike
    11 years ago

    Gabe, I stand corrected. I was basing it on my own memory of the post game comments, but in actuality, “inferior” can be another description of what Jackson said even though he didn’t actually use the word.. Less the Euro guys accuse me of being an NBA troll, it’s good you corrected me so they can see we are trying to be fair.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Yeah. The good thing is I actually quotes three coaches, (two NBA coaches one who is arguably the best coach of all time and one very respected Euroleague coach) as saying one difference between NBA and Euroleague is the size of the players in the NBA.

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  72. John
    11 years ago

    I do not understand why these posts have to always degenerate into inter league warfare.

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  73. RT
    11 years ago

    Gabe, you are a complete idiot and a troll who is on some serious drugs. I can’t believe that you haven’t been banned yet.

    But anyway, single exhibition games say nothing, as I keep saying over and over again. Could a Euroleague team make the NBA playoffs? That can’t be answered by one meaningless game, especially given that the NBA regular season schedule is about twice as long as what Euroleague teams have to play (meaning again that endurance/physical talent are more important in the NBA).

    ______________________________________________________________

    Why do NBA fans always make up this myth that Euroleague teams play “half as many games as NBA teams”?

    It isn’t true. So please stop saying it.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Oh yes but it is true. With Euroleague and playing in their national league Euroleague teams play like only 50 max while NBA teams play a minimum of 82 games which can be extended up to 100 games for a team making the finals so it is 2X as much.

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  74. RT
    11 years ago

    Bosh and Love and also play center.

    And talking about the exhibition games do you know that since 2003 NBA teams are 36-7 against Euroleague teams in those exhibition games? I don’t care what rules/refs/arenas those games are played in, it clearly shows domination

    _______________________________________________________

    Agaijn, you cannot do anything but troll. It is NOT fair to count all the games that were played with pure NBA rules, and 3 NBA refs. You claiming it is, proves again that you are indeed a troll.

    It is only fair to count the games that were played under the 60% NBA rules / 40% FIBA rules, with the 2 NBA refs / 1 FIBA ref.

    Even though those games STILL favor the NBA, it is more fair.

    The NBA is 9-5 against Euroleague teams under such games. 9-5.

    Using the games under pure NBA rules as being a fair measure is absolutely ridiculous and only a troll would do that.

    So, the NBA is 9-5 against Euroleague teams in games that are actually somewhat fair.

    That hardly at all proves that the NBA is a billion times better than the Euroleague, like you keep claiming. ESPN did a computer simulation and Kentucky (NCAA champs) with a “all NBA draft pick starting five” would supposedly win 1 game in an entire NBA season.

    You have Euroleague teams, even some of them bad teams being involved, with a 5-9 record in the games where the rules are mixed. Yet, we have to listen to you over and over claim that there is not a single player in Euroleague that is good enough to play in the NBA.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      First off I never said no player in Euroleague is good enough to play in the NBA. That is just silly considering Euroleague players come over all the time to play in the NBA.

      So yes I actually figured that NBA teams are 10-5 in those games, maybe you’re not counting Memphis Barca in 2003? But anyway those games were on the road for the NBA teams and they still won 2 out of 3 and some of those NBA teams that lost were pretty bad as well like the Sixers and the Grizzlies.

      But even with NBA rules and refs it pretty pathetic for Euroleague teams to be 2-26 in North America.

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  75. RT
    11 years ago

    Jackson didn’t say they were inferior he was asked if they would be competitive in the NBA in an 82 game season and he responded “no” and

    “They played really well [Thursday], but they’re not up to the competition that we face night in and night out,” Jackson said. “But that’s not taking anything away from them. The physicality of our game, the size of our players, those are things that night in and night out are very difficult to contest.”

    ——————————————————————————————–

    Funny because according to reporters he was yelling and screaming at his team in the locker room after the game. Saying it was an outright humiliation that they lost that game that they were trying to win and were on orders from the NBA to win.

    And it’s amazing, “the size of our players”, when the average Euroleague team is taller than the average NBA team.

    Just because Jackson said it does not make it true. Why should he be allowed to get away with such comments when they are a lie? Just like Messina. Euroleague has taller players than the NBA does on average. So them claiming otherwise is just them lying.

    I am sorry, but I do NOT take comments that are provable lies as having any legitimacy whatsoever.

    Obradovic said that the Euroleague is better than the NBA. He is a Euroleague coach. I don’t see Gabe talking about his comments. Gabe digging up some untrue comments, from coaches that are kissing the NBA’s ass isn’t proving a thing.

    Obradovic, who has won 8 Euroleague titles (Messina won just 3), said:

    “The NBA isn’t a serious league. Most of the regular season games are not serious and almost all of the teams don’t even play defense until the playoffs. The NBA is not physical and the refs help certain players and teams too much. Many players in the NBA cannot play basketball, and can only run and jump. Most NBA teams have no depth and only have a few really good players.”

    Obradovic, who is a Euroleague coach, and won EIGHT Euroleague titles said that after his team came back from playing against NBA teams. And in Europe, Obradovic is seen as like a 100 times a better coach than Messina.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Hmm interesting. I tried to look up that quote and only found this from Obradovic:

      “I am very happy in Europe, coaching for Panathinaikos. I love European basketball. I believe that the NBA is a competition that everyone likes to watch. There are many coaches in Europe that are ready to coach in the NBA. I personally never thought to go. I believe it is very different, basketball during the regular season. The NBA is a show, while here we play to win every game. In the playoffs, NBA games are very good, but the rest of it is just a show. We must win every game in Europe, this is our life.”

      So saying the regular season is just a show but nothing about the NBA not being physical or players only being able to run and jump and not being deep.

      And maybe he’s just bitter that as coach he bought Panathinaikos over to North American to play NBA teams and they lost all three games by an average of 28 points! lol

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  76. RT
    11 years ago

    I do not understand why these posts have to always degenerate into inter league warfare.

    _____________________________________________________________

    Because you have people like Gabe that just troll over and over again. Look at how much BS he just posted in the last few posts. He is claiming that NBA players are way bigger and superior in size to Euroleague players.

    But, the Euroleague has taller players than the NBA does on average. So what Gabe is saying is just a lie. He uses FALSE statements (or flat out lies) from a couple of coaches that have always had the reps of lying to the media for their own personal gains, and takes it to be a fact.

    He then just states as a fact, and says that anyone that disagrees with it is a liar and a troll. But, he IS the liar and the troll. Does he actually, verify that those claims were true or not? Nope, he does NOT.

    Instead, he simply claims it as “fact” and then says anyone in disagreement is some kind of nut case. I honestly do not see how anyone can respect Gabe here. A lot of people her call him a troll, but he is worse than that. He is a big time antagonist.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      All I did was copy and paste exact quotes from Phil Jackson, Stan Van Gundy and Ettore Messina so you may disagree with what they said but I don’t see how posting exact quotes from those coaches is me lying.

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  77. Aleksandar Zoran
    11 years ago

    GABE, we are talking about Howard and Griffin not being as effective playing under FIBA rules and you bring up the fact that Howard has performed well in a games played under NBA rules and in NBA courts with NBA dimensions

    do unlike most Euro-centric NAZI racist people here I don’t think you are a troll, but to be completely honest with you man, sometimes YOU MAKE NO GODDAMN SENSE whatsoever

    that argument simply falls short of any type of logical thinking.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      That wasn’t my argument. I used that game because after the game both coaches, the NBA and Euroleague coach commented how physically imposing Howard is and that you don’t have any players like him in Euroleague.

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  78. Phileus
    11 years ago

    First of all, the “NBA season is much longer” thing is absolutely true – it’s a fact, not an opinion.

    Second, Obradovic is right in a sense. NBA teams don’t take every single regular season game seriously. There are too many games in the schedule, that’s true. That’s why you have people like Popovich basically throwing games by sitting all his star players; in the long run, surviving the grueling season with all your stars in good shape for the playoffs is more important than trying to win every single game.

    Also, there are players who are athletically gifted and can’t play. That’s true, and that’s largely the fault of idiotic GMs. On the other hand, there are loads of very technically skilled players who can’t make it because they aren’t athletic enough. Like I said before, athleticism maybe isn’t “good enough” in the Euroleague, but it’s almost a pre-requisite for being successful in the NBA.

    But these “Euroleague is better than the NBA” statements are silly. What does “better” even mean? Does it mean that the average Euroleague game is more intense than the average NBA regular season game? Err, sure. But keep in mind, even your idol Spanoulis said (after he left the NBA) that the NBA has the best players in the world.

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  79. mike
    11 years ago

    Phileus, Spanouilis said what? What a shocker! He must have taken the drugs that Gabe is taking.
    I’m a Sixer fan(God help me), and Spencer Hawes is listed 7’1, but no one in his right mind would say he is bigger than Dwight Howard, who is listed as 6’11. Why? Because in basketball, “big” isn’t always just height, but strength, jumping ability, and reach(747 territory). Also, I would take a paint eating “godzilla” 6’11 center than a 7’2 Euro softie shooting threes any day of the week. Team USA knew this. So they had Lamar Odom, who is 6’10 on a good day, start as center on that “fiba world champion” 2010 team. They knew all Odom had to do was guard for 3 balls against Euro softies, and rebound the basketball which he did well enough for the US to win. In the NBA, Odom isn’t considered one of the best PF’s in the game, let alone centers..

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    • Phileus
      11 years ago

      Yeesh, I’m not saying Dwight Howard turns into trash the moment he goes abroad. He’s probably on a superhuman level, in the top 0.000000000001% of physique and athleticism. Obviously that will translate in some level to whatever level he plays at.

      What I’m saying, more broadly is that it’s not correct to say “someone good in the NBA will automatically be just as good or better in the Euroleague” (or international play in general). Even though that is probably true most of the time, I still stick to that, partially because real life experience supports me. For example, is Bo McCalebb better than Brandon Jennings or Ty Lawson? Most stateside fans would say, “Who’s Bo McCalebb?” but there’s a whole continent of basketball fans who would say the answer is obviously yes, because their experience supports them. You can’t blame them for feeling that way, though you can blame them for the way the say it and for trying to use these anecdotes as proof that the Euroleague is superior.

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      • Gabe
        11 years ago

        Yeah Jennings is the Euroleague’s answer to Spanoulis because he didn’t do that well in Euroleague (averaging 7.6 ppg and only 1.6 assists) while in the NBA he is a starter. Now I will sound like Spanouilis supporters saying his coaches didn’t play him but also that one year he played overseas he was 19. He should have been a freshman in college so it’s not like he was in the prime of his career.

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  80. mike
    11 years ago

    Rt, arguments will “degenerate” into inter league warfare until the kooks come to their senses. To be fair, I pick up the Euroleague games and fiba ball, and I think it is a very good brand of basketball, but in no way are the players in the vicinity of talent in the NBA. Think about it, almost all great players, European or American ,wants the challenge of going up against the best players in the world, and making much more money in the process. NBA games are beamed all over the world, and the world is truly your oyster, if you’re a great NBA players. Now, why would you want to play in Europe? If you can’t hack it in the NBA, yeah, let ‘s go across the pond. Not saying this is what always happens, since a guy like Navarro was a good player for Memphis, but opted to play in Europe where he is a god.

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  81. JP
    11 years ago

    Barcelona’s 5 man front line rotation in that game against the Lakers:

    PF Erazem Lorbek 6-11 250
    PF Terrence Morris 6-9 240

    C Fran Vazquez 6-11 240
    C Kosta Perovic 7-2 260
    C Boniface N’Dong 7-0 245

    OMG…how incredibly undersized and small compared to NBA teams. MY GOD, Phil Jackson is right. What the hell could such a freaking TINY front line possibly do against those super colossal sized NBA front lines???

    Obviously, Phil Jackson is a crack head, or at least anyone that took those comments he made about Barcelona’s team being too small to hang in the NBA is a crack head.

    Now, all I had to do was take a few minutes time to check this. To see for myself, is RT telling the truth, or is it Gabe and Phil Jackson. Well, obviously, Gabe and Phil Jackson are not telling the truth.

    HOW THE HELL can this,

    PF Erazem Lorbek 6-11 250
    PF Terrence Morris 6-9 240

    C Fran Vazquez 6-11 240
    C Kosta Perovic 7-2 260
    C Boniface N’Dong 7-0 245

    front line be “too small to play in the NBA”????

    So yeah, it definitely shows that Gabe is some kind of a tool. Gabe, you cannot bring up something PJ said that was not actually true and pass it off as fact. Then get all pissy at someone else that said it was incorrect and call them some kind of crazy fool.

    If you don’t even have the brains to check thing for yourself then you are a troll. If you think that front line is too small to play in the NBA then you are just dumb.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      I never got pissy and called anyone a fool so stop making up lies. I am just passing up as fact that PJ said that and you also exaggerate on those numbers a bit.

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  82. anestis
    11 years ago

    i dont think that european top players who didn’t make it in the nba (like jasikevicius, spanoulis etc) have a problem with athleticism or a problem with their “star mentality” they had in europe… some of the best players ever (bird, nowitzki) weren’t / aren’t great athletes…

    on the other hand i don’t think there is any kind of nba conspiracy against european players… ginobili (he played in europe), nowitzki, gasol, parker did get the opportunity to show how good they were…

    the big problem in cases likes spanoulis or jasikevicius are some nba coaches who wouldn’t be able to coach even in minor leagues in europe… it’s simple… jasikevicius is one of the best pick&roll players ever… did he get a role that would fit to his style of play??? no he didn’t… spanoulis is a great player with the ball in his hands (for many people in europe, me included, he is better than tony parker)… did he get a role in which he could show his talent?? no, he had to watch mcgrady taking contested shots…

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  83. Phileus
    11 years ago

    “did he get a role in which he could show his talent?? no, he had to watch mcgrady taking contested shots…”

    Well actually, that is exactly the “star mentality” problem I’m talking about. I don’t mean that the players are arrogant, exactly, but why should the coaches rework the rosters around them? Sure, if they changed their playbooks, they could make better use of these players, but would that have been better for the team overall? Probably not.

    Also, I agree with your comment about some NBA coaches (like Macijauskas with the awful Hornets, and even JVG on the Rockets), but Jasikevicius played under Rick Carlisle in a scrappy post-Malice in the Palace team in Indiana. Carlisle is not an incompetent/anti-Euro coach. Also, when Spanoulis left, he had been traded to the Spurs (for Luis Scola… argh!) where he would have been playing under Popovich, one of the best NBA coaches of all time. I don’t think it had to do with the coaches all the time.

    What you said about Spanoulis kind of reminded me of Jeremy Lin in New York. Lin is far more effective with the ball in his hands than he is as a distributor, but in the long run, New York is better off living and dying with Carmelo Anthony, even if it means Lin will not be used effectively. I’m not saying Spanoulis and Lin are the same level, but I hope you see what I mean!

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  84. anestis
    11 years ago

    nobody said that JVG should have benched mcgrady in order to give spanoulis the space he needed… he could give him a more executing role (in which he fits better i think) and give the ball to spanoulis with a more creating role… this would give mcgrady better shots, it would give yao better scoring opportunities and in summary it would help the team… the rockets would still be t-mac’s team but they would have one more weapon against the opponents’ defense…

    this nba mentality that “our star has to take 40-50% of our shots and handle the ball 30-40% of the offensive time” is good for creating “heros”, selling shirts, making new (young) fans around the world but it is not as good as the european or college basketball maxim that “everyone plays for the team (according to the rules of the coach) and helps the team to win”

    if for example the knicks can be more effective with jeremy lin on ball and carmelo waiting for assists then it would be better for them to play this way…

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  85. JP
    11 years ago

    Exaggerate? I didn’t exaggerate anything.

    That’s the size of those players. Unless you are talking about Vazquez being listed at 6-10, not 6-11. He’s over 6-11 in shoes, in case you didn’t know. The NBA lists players by shoe heights.

    You were making fun of others and acting like they were nuts or something for not taking what PJ said as gospel. Yeah, you appear to be a troll.

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  86. JP
    11 years ago

    Yeah Jennings is the Euroleague’s answer to Spanoulis because he didn’t do that well in Euroleague (averaging 7.6 ppg and only 1.6 assists) while in the NBA he is a starter. Now I will sound like Spanouilis supporters saying his coaches didn’t play him but also that one year he played overseas he was 19. He should have been a freshman in college so it’s not like he was in the prime of his

    _______________________________________________________________

    Uh, just Brandon Jennings? I can think of a whole bunch of Euroleague scrubs from recent years that have been good NBA guards.

    Brandon Jennings

    and

    Ty Lawson
    Ricky Rubio
    Goran Dragic
    Gray Neal

    I am sure there are others, but those come to mind right away. Don’t try to make it sound like it is just Brandon Jennings. It was all of those guys. All of them were scrubs in Euroleague, and all of them have done well in the NBA.

    Which is just a proof that some of your wild claims are invalid. Like for instance, that “any good NBA player will do good in the Euroleague.” That is absolutely 100% FALSE.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      First off I said any star in the NBA not good player. I also was just defending Brandon Jennings not trying to make a point on everyone. Also were those players really “scrubs”? A definition of a scrub is someone who had trouble getting off the bench.

      Ty Lawson: Averaged over 20 mpg in Euroleague-not a scrub
      Ricky Rubio: Averaged over 20 mpg in Euroleague plus won a Euroleague Rising Star Award which is the equivalent of a Rookie of the Year Award-not a scrub
      Goran Dragic: I couldn’t find his minutes but he did average 9.7 ppg in Euroleague which I wouldn’t call scrub material like Spanouilis’ 2.7 ppg in the NBA.
      Gary Neal: The one example of a scrub his one year in Euroleague but then moved on to Eurocup where he was named to All-Eurocup 2nd team.

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  87. mike
    11 years ago

    Jp, srubs? Last I checked Dragic and Rubio were on their respective national teams. The coaches who picked them must not know something you know, if they believe “scrubs” in Europe can win a medal for them in international play.. As for Lawson, there are players who are not at their best for international rules, and are more suited for NBA rules, and that goes vice versa.Gray Neal? I have never heard of him.
    The fact is NBA scouts pick players at their earliest stage for their potential and room for growth. When the Spurs chose Tony Parker from Europe, he wasn’t nearly the player he is now, but the scouts knew his growth trajectory was much higher than more experienced and more polished European guards. Well, look at Parker now. Not only is he an MVP candidate in the NBA, but he is also the heart of a very good French team .
    Same thing when NBA scouts evaluate college players. Patrick Ewing was not a big scorer in college, but differences in defensive rules and added growth in his game made Ewing a big time scorer in the NBA. Michael Jordan, the greatest player ever, was a great college player, but I don’t remember anyone projecting him at the time to be the best player ever. There are many examples. Be careful comparing very young players who have yet to develop their games. Brandon Jennings’ game has grown a lot, and if he ever came back to Europe would dominate in ways he never did when he played back there.

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  88. Americans Overrate The NBA
    11 years ago

    This forum is an an absolute joke. You have people here arguing that Childress was a top player in Europe and that Rubio wasn’t a scrub in Euroleague.

    Some of the things said here are truly mind boggling. There is clearly no standard of posting here.

    I am an NBA fan and a Euroleague fan. I watch both a lot. The fact is that NBA fans overrate the NBA to an extreme degree and they underrate the Euroleague to a level of ludicrousness.

    I am watching these NBA games and regularly seeing guys that were often being cut from small European domestic teams and yet are somehow in NBA rotations. I look at the rosters of some of the NBA teams and just have to shake my head.

    The NBA is about HALF as good as it was 20 years ago. I honestly think that anyone that actually watches both the NBA and Euroleague and does not think the Euroleague is better is a total moron.

    I don’t think a single team in the NBA would be able to win a 7 game series with any of the teams in the Euroleague Final Four. I have seen enough NBA in my time to know that the current level of the NBA is REALLY WEAK.

    It would be hilarious seeing some of these co-called best NBA teams like the Thunder or Pacers trying to play a team like CSKA in a 7 game series. They would get rocked totally.

    About this idea that Euroleague teams are too small for NBA teams – I find that really funny. Most of the Euroleague teams are noticeably bigger than your average NBA team.

    The lead guards in Euroleague are absolutely HUGE compared to NBA guards. Also, there are teams that have 3,4 6-10 plus guys in their rotations.

    There is no logical person that would think Euroleague teams are small if they actually follow that league.

    In the past, once could say there was no “player x in Euroleague”, but even that advantage is gone for the NBA now.

    Kobe is old
    Dirk is old
    Duncan is old
    LeBron is totally overrated
    Wade is totally overrated
    Rose is ridiculously overrated
    Howard is totally overrated
    Griffin is totally overrated

    Really, I can think maybe just you could say “there is no Durant in Euroleague” and that is it. The NBA has maybe ONE player that you could not replace with anyone in the Euroleague.

    It’s amazing how arrogant Americans are about basketball. No, strike that. It;s truly sickening.

    Bottom line, I have been following the NBA for 25 years and the Euroleague for 5 years and I can say without any hesitation, that a team of the 10 best NBA players would get rocked by a team of the 10 best Euroleague players.

    Miami couldn’t beat any of Barca, PAO, OSFP, CSKA in a 7 game playoff series, and they are supposed to be the cream of the crop of the NBA.

    It’s also sad that so many Americans seem incapable of understanding that team USA does not play against a team of European all stars. They play against single individual European countries.

    Here we have a clear group of people that think Team USA beating someone in international play proves the NBA is better than the Euroleague or what not. That’s just dumb. Team USA would be spanked by a European-wide selection.

    But what happens is obviously that Americans keep telling themselves that Team USA equates to “beating the Europeans” or to “NBA vs. Euroleague”. Of course, anyone that actually thinks that is an ignorant simpleton.

    It would be ugly for Team USA if they ever actually did have to play a top European selection, just as it would be ugly for the NBA if they made something like an NBA vs. Euroleague All-Star Game.

    There is a reason why David Stern refused to accept the FIBA World Basketball Club Championship tournament. It’s because the NBA champions can’t beat those premier Euroleague teams anymore.

    I just know that anyone that really thinks the NBA is better than the Euroleague does not have the first clue about the game of basketball.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      It’s joke posts like this that keep me going. lol Team USA constantly spanks teams with Euroleague players. Even the two silver medalists in the last two global competitions main players were NBA players. Teams with mainly Euroleague players can’t even win silver anymore. lol Even if you look at the top two teams in Eurobasket this year, France and Spain, all their top players were NBA players. In fact like 9 of the top ten players (minutes played, points scored) in the Eurobasket final were NBA players and that’s for Eurobasket!

      NBA teams constantly blows out Euroleague teams in exhibition games with a record of like 38-6 the past 12 years and lots of those wins have been blowouts. I don’t care about excuses about rules and refs if the leagues were anywhere near close at least that number would be at least near respectable.

      NBA role players, Kleiza, Kirilenko, Krstic etc…come over to Euroleague and are the top players while Euroleague stars, Spaoulis, Jasikevicious, Pargo came over to the NBA and are scrubs.

      But what more can be said? Team USA constantly spanks international teams. NBA teams constantly spank Euroleague teams.

      What more can be done? They can only play the games they play. When Team USA again dominates the competition this summer and the silver and bronze medalist also have their best players be NBA players what else can be said?

      When the Celtics and Mavericks travel to Europe this fall and, win, at least the majority of games against their Euroleague hosts what else can be done?

      So you can keep your delusional beliefs, I bet you believe in the tooth fairy too, we’ll take the constant wins against your inferior players because it’s so fun to spank sore losers. (:

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      • Phileus
        11 years ago

        Bahhahaha, we can make 200 comments guys!

        Anyway, whether or not you like the style of the NBA, it’s an objective fact that USA has the deepest talent pool in the world, and so there’s a legitimate reason for that “arrogance.”

        In the last week, the starting center and point guard of Team USA have had an injury or surgery that will keep them out of the Olympics. There is no other team in the world that could lose 40% of its starting lineup and still be considered heavy favorites for gold.

        Heck, there’s no other team in the world that could lose 100% of its starting lineup — let alone 100% of its entire roster! — from one tournament to the next and still be favored to medal at all. Sure, coaching and team cohesion are different matters altogether, but in terms of having pure talent waiting in the wings, no country even comes close. So give credit where it’s due. The USA still produces the top players in the world, despite its idiotic development system, and it still produces way more of the top players in the world than anywhere else, really.

        If you’re bitter about it, maybe you should rally for an all-EU team for the future 🙂

        —

        Also, the NBA will never agree to a “FIBA World Cup” or whatever because no owners would let their teams participate in it unless there were some valuable reward.

        The fact of the matter is that too few NBA fans actually care whether their teams win in exhibitions against teams they’ve never heard of to make the owners (and therefore, the players) actually take the idea of such a tournament seriously.

        Probably < 1% of the NBA fans in the US actually know what "Euroleague" is. Most of those who do know it think of it as a place where their favorite college players who weren't good enough to make it to the NBA went to make careers for themselves. Most team owners are already upset at having their players play in the Olympics, so there's no chance they'd agree to another long tournament to wear down their players when there's absolutely nothing to gain.

        —

        By the way, the fact that you called the Pacers one of the league's best teams totally undermined your claim that you follow the NBA closely 😛

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        • Gabe
          11 years ago

          I think the NBA’s 37-7 record against Euroleague teams in “meaningless” exhibitions games mean something. It’s not meaningless for the players in Euroleague, they’re trying to prove that they can play against the best players in the world. And I’ve been thinking about people’s argument about NBA rules and refs, well Team USA manages to play with 100% FIBA rules and 100% FIBA refs and still goes undefeated and dominate the competition. Basketball is basketball my friend and 37-7 is 37-7.

          I also remember reading about NBA agreeing to start sending teams to an “FIBA World Club Championship” a couple years ago. The thing was it was going to include the Eurochallenge champions (the third tier European league) not the Euroleague champions since FIBA is associated with Eurochallenge not Euroleague. It was suppose to start a few years ago without the NBA team but it didn’t. I wonder what happened, it must have got canceled I guess.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Oh and one last point. I’m sure that every knows this looking at post making more excuses about Team USA’s dominance but the USA is a “single individual American country”.

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  89. mike
    11 years ago

    Stupid and idiotic arguments from “Americans overate the NBA”. Guys, some of these posters are like flat earthers, creationists, global warming deniers who don’t believe in science . They can’t plainly see what the rest of the world knows.
    Gabe, I wouldn’t be surprised if they believed in the tooth fairy, , the loch ness monster, bigfoot.LOL

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  90. RT
    11 years ago

    I think the NBA’s 37-7 record against Euroleague teams in “meaningless” exhibitions games mean something. It’s not meaningless for the players in Euroleague, they’re trying to prove that they can play against the best players in the world. And I’ve been thinking about people’s argument about NBA rules and refs, well Team USA manages to play with 100% FIBA rules and 100% FIBA refs and still goes undefeated and dominate the competition. Basketball is basketball my friend and 37-7 is 37-7.

    I also remember reading about NBA agreeing to start sending teams to an “FIBA World Club Championship” a couple years ago. The thing was it was going to include the Eurochallenge champions (the third tier European league) not the Euroleague champions since FIBA is associated with Eurochallenge not Euroleague. It was suppose to start a few years ago without the NBA team but it didn’t. I wonder what happened, it must have got canceled I guess.

    _________________________________________________

    The NBA is 9-5 against Euroleague teams under mixed rules. As has already been pointed out, counting any other games is pure trolling.

    The NBA is 9-5 against the Euroleague. That’s it buddy. That;s it, Mr. TROLLL.

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    • Phileus
      11 years ago

      So basically you’re saying, that because the Euroleague has a 36% win rate against the NBA in those games, it’s better than the NBA? 😛

      I’m pretty sure you’re better off agreeing with me that these exhibitions don’t really mean much 😉

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      • Gabe
        11 years ago

        The exhibitions don’t mean much?! They still basketball games with pride on the line. Especially games between leagues. The Euroleague players want to prove they can play against the best teams in the league and the NBA players don’t want the embarrassment of losing to an inferior league. Yes it’s exhibitions so the players are rusty and the coaches (especially the NBA coaches) tend to play their bench players more than in a meaningful game. Still the bench players are playing their best because they are trying to make the team.

        AND RT: So there NBA is 9-5 on the road and 28-2 at home! Mixed rules smixed rules. Why haven’t you guys commented on that fantastic point I made? IN FIBA PLAY TEAM USA PLAYS WITH 100% FIBA RULES AND STILL MANAGES TO DOMINATE. Basketball is basketball. It is a might be a bit of an disadvantage to play with unfamiliar rules but if you are talented enough, like Team USA, you overcome it. 2-28 shows the talent of Euroleague overcoming it against NBA.

        And if you believe that it is so hard to win with different rules and refs and I am a TROLL!!! for just suggesting to count the games than you have to also admit that Team USA with NBA players is even more dominate winning under FIBA rules and refs. I mean teams like Greece, Lithuania and Serbia must really suck since they are filled with mostly Euroleague players and they lose tournaments to Team USA with all NBA players who are SO MUCH AT A DISADVANTAGE PLAYING WITH DIFFERENT RULES AND REFS.

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        • Gabe
          11 years ago

          You know I’m sort of relieved by this. So right now I can brag how great Team USA is in winning the Olympics and World Championships with two completely different rosters (which I’m sure Euroleague fans would be bragging if their teams won in North America). But, if and when the Team USA finally loses a tournament again I can claim it doesn’t count because it was played under 100% FIBA rules and refs. In fact I can say anyone who counts the game as Team USA with NBA players losing would be pure trolling and Mr. TROLLL because it was so unfair for them to have to learn to play with different rules!

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  91. Zarko
    11 years ago

    This discussion is an embarrassment to this website. I come here to read about EUROPEAN basketball and all I see is NBA, NBA, NBA, Team USA, Team USA, Team USA and how wonderful and magical and superior they are.

    It’s like there is nowhere that you can discuss European basketball without these NBA only fan morons trolling.

    Hey Gabe and Mike, you can leave. Almost every basketball fan I know from the Balkans thinks the Euroleague is better than the NBA is. If you don’t like it, then go troll at another site. I am sure that realgm and insidehoops can use more NBA only fans of your caliber.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      That really doesn’t give much props to the basketball fans you know in the Balkans! They must have more nationalistic pride than intelligence. I’m sure they believe their national teams are better than Team USA too. lol

      So you keep believing that a league made up of NBA rejects with attendance averages of under 8,000 is better than the NBA, I’m sure there are nationalistic, ignorant rednecks in Australia who would swear that the Australian Basketball Association is better than the NBA too.

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  92. mike
    11 years ago

    Zarko, you are a bastion of basketball ignorance. A true basketball fan appreciates basketball wherever it’s played, and not with your anti-American goggles on. Relax, take a deep breath, and then learn to appreciate that the NBA is a superior league. Once you accept that concept, your mind will be liberated of your hatred, and the truth will set you free. Try it.LOL

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  93. Apollo
    11 years ago

    Gabe says:
    May 1, 2012 at 2.32am

    “That really doesn’t give much props to the basketball fans you know in the Balkans! They must have more nationalistic pride than intelligence. I’m sure they believe their national teams are better than Team USA too. lol

    So you keep believing that a league made up of NBA rejects with attendance averages of under 8,000 is better than the NBA, I’m sure there are nationalistic, ignorant rednecks in Australia who would swear that the Australian Basketball Association is better than the NBA too.”

    NBA is made up of Euroleague rejects. A whole bunch of guys that were cut in Euroleague play or have played in the NBA.

    Also, the NBA “attendance” figures are not that great. NBA counts attendance as tickets sold, Euroleague counts attendance as the number of people at the arena.

    FYI, the in arena attendance figure for the NBA, on average, is only about 12,000.

    In the Balkans, Spain, Turkey, Baltic area, and Greece, the Euroleague gets far higher TV ratings than the NBA does.

    Of course, facts don’t mean much to you do they Gabe. You would rather just believe that your own opinion is a “fact”, rather than actually know what a truth is. You are so very typical of the average American.

    Your own beliefs and personal world paradigms being your “facts of the world”, even if they are imagined in your own head….so typical of how your countrymen “think”.

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    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Hahahah Apollo you are really hilarious. You should come to American and do stand-up. I’ve seen Euroleague games. They look like they are played in high school gyms. FACT: any American who is in Euroleague is there because he couldn’t make it in the NBA. No American’s first choice is playing in Euroleague. No player who is cut from Euroleague has ever played in the NBA. I respond with facts and you respond with you delusional lies.

      One NBA team’s roster cost more money that the whole Euroleague. NBA stars, like Kobe and Lebron, make more money than whole Euroleague teams. Nobody except basketball fans in Europe even know what Euroleague is while people all over the world know the NBA. There is a reason why I post here and not on NBA sites. On NBA sites I make one post and 10 minutes later there’s like a 100 new comments so no one ever responds to my post.

      But this is a dumb argument like comparing the MLS to premier soccer. Only retards would think the Euroleague is even close to the NBA. Let’s start a new thread with leagues we can actually realistically compare. I think in the past few years the National Basketball League (NBL) in Australia has passed Euroleague as the second best league in the world. The NBL gets far better ratings than Euroleague in Sidney and Melborne and the Euroleague is made up of NBL rejects. The top NBL teams would destroy the “best” Euroleague teams in a seven game series. The best 10 players in Euroleague would get rocked by the best 10 players in the NBL.

      ReplyCancel
  94. mike
    11 years ago

    Apollo, are you going to be posting something sane soon? We’re still waiting. As usual, Gabe demolished your Euroleague is equal to NBA commercially argument. Not even close, Apollo. Commercially, Euroleague is a true minor league as compared to the NBA. Is that the best you have, Apollo?

    Gabe, I know nothing about the NBL. Are you joshing or dead serious about the NBL being the 2nd best pro league?

    ReplyCancel
    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      I was joking but my point is that the NBL is just as close to Euroleague as Euroleague is to the NBA. Or I probably should have used the Chinese Basketball Association (CBA) instead of the NBL. The CBA is probably better than the NBL because ex-NBA players (Marbury, Francis, J.R. Smith) have played there and they have more money I assume because of that.

      ReplyCancel
  95. Phileus
    11 years ago

    Wow Gabe, you’ve gotten a lot less civil over these past few months. Deciding to fight fire with fire? I get the frustration of putting out well-reasoned and researched arguments time after time only to get “You are an idiot, liar, and a troll on drugs” thrown back at you every time, but calling people retards isn’t a good look either.

    Also making unjustifiable comments comparing the Euroleague to the CBA, let alone the NBL, really is just flame-baiting. Some CBA teams aren’t even elite NCAA D1-level.

    At the end of the day no amount of proof or arguments will make any difference in how anyone else here thinks, so I wonder why we care at all.

    ReplyCancel
    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Again. I got into this argument before saying I was comparing Euroleague to MLS. I am not comparing the Euroleague to the CBA. I’m saying comparing the Euroleague to the NBA is like comparing the CBA to Euroleague.

      ReplyCancel
  96. MikeZ
    11 years ago

    There have been LOTS of players that were cut by Euroleague teams that have played in the NBA.

    MANY

    Claiming otherwise is just a flat out lie.

    ReplyCancel
    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Name one.

      ReplyCancel
  97. MikeZ
    11 years ago

    Flip Murray

    Von Wafer

    Gary Neal

    Jeff Adrien

    Dajuan Summers

    That’s just a few that come to mind from the last recent years. I know there are MANY more just in the last few years. I would just have to go check it. Because there are a lot.

    Hell, not to mention how many guys cut from domestic leagues.

    Just very recently, the Spurs signed a guy that was cut from the Greek League.

    The list of guys just in the last few years is LONG.

    The mere fact that you don’t even know about this is proof of what a dumb ass you are and of just how much trash you talk here without even knowing what the hell you are talking about.

    You are a jerk. In history, there are probably over 100 (conservative estimate) guys that were cut by Euroleague clubs that played in the NBA.

    Hell, I can think of just one team alone like Baskonia has had several just in the last few years. Just that one team.

    Reggie Williams was one example just this year for them, and they have had several.

    You see, Gabe, this is why you are a jerk and no one here likes you. It’s because you don’t deal in reality. You made it up that no NBA player ever got cut from the Euroleague and act like it’s true. When in reality, BUNCHES of NBA players have been cut from Euroleague teams, and domestic teams.

    You really are an arrogant douche bag.

    ReplyCancel
    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      You make it seem that Gary Neal was cut from Euroleague and then went straight to the NBA when in fact he went to Eurocup and was voted all-Eurocup second team before coming to the NBA.

      ReplyCancel
  98. Aleksandar Zoran
    11 years ago

    ok, this is just too much to handle right now.

    who the fuck was the one who literally sat down on their living room and typed that the CBA is better than the ABL because Marbury an a couple of other 40 years old ex-nba players played there?

    EVERYONE STOP IT, HUST STOP IT
    STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

    stop this nonsense already. cba better than abl because it has some nba imports? I mean god… would you all just shut the fuck up and think what you are going to say before you actually say anything so you don’t embarrassed yourself in public that badly?

    OH MY GOSH THERE ARE SO MANY MORONIC ARGUMENTS is this page from both sides of the debate that I think my head is going to explode, YOU CAN ONLY TAKE SO MUCH BULLSHIT, you know :

    let me just list some of the most stupid things discussed, or actually yelled, here by both side so you guys can see how ignorant you all sound:

    – the Eurolegue is better than the NBA because Brandon Jennings didn’t play well over there – nonsense

    -nba all star would be the best players on Europe if they played there? – nonsense

    -European players are as good as most nba all star but they play poorly becuase the nba coaches are bad?- really? really is that even a fucking argument

    -European teams full of players that were cut from the nba are better than nba teams under fiba rules – super dupper nonsense

    -the Chinese league is the rd best league in the world because Steve Francis played there for 7 minutes in one game and the was cut – gabe stfu and go do some googling please

    – Apollo now goes by Americans Overrate The NBA – how many nicknames does this freak needs? seriously

    -the Euroleague teams are better than nba teams because the have a 3 to 9 record against nba teams – hey buddy sorry to break it to you but I don’t know where you come from but where I come from if you win less games and lose more, you are the bad team no the other way around

    -the nba 37 wins record against the euroleague does not count because it was under nba rules but the euroleague 7 wins do count and Barcelona is better the the lakers because – it beat them – so it only counts when you want the to count? make up your mind people

    -Ty Lawson and Brandon Jennings are nba super stars – what the ……

    -Ricky Rubio was a scrub in Europe and now it’s a super star in the nba – so let me get this straight the guy that became the youngest player ever to play in the Spanish ACB League, at age 14, the guy that made his Euroleague debut at age 16, the same guy that signed a €5.7 million ($8.1 million) contract with Juventud, that was bought out by Barcelona for €3.5 million ($5.0 million) with a buyout at $1.4 million dollars, the guy won the EuroChallenge championship with Joventut his first year as a starter, the guy that led the Spanish ACB League in twice in steals and won the Spanish ACB League’s Rising Star Award in 07, the guy that was also named the 2007, 2008, and 2009 FIBA Europe Young Player of the Year, won the Eurocup championship with Joventut in 2008, was also voted the Spanish ACB League’s best point guard in 2008 and 2010, won as a starter the Euroleague 2009-2010 with Barcelona, consider the best European team, the guy selected for the Spanish national team that play at the 2008 Olympics over other more expirience nba player in Sergio Rodriguez that is now the Real Madrid Starting pg,the guy that won the 2008 Mr. Europa Award, was for a second time named the Defensive Player of the Year for the Spanish ACB League during the 2008-09 season, after leading the league in steals that season, the guy that in the Under-16 European championship led the junior Spanish national team to a gold medal, where he achieved two triple-doubles and the first tournamnet quadruple-double, you got that a mother fucking quadruple fucking double, scored 51 points in the finals being the first player to do so in since Luol Deng in 2001, besides grabbing 24 rebounds, plus the usual 12 assists, and 7 whooping steals, which had never being done before in the mother fucking history of the mother fucking tournament, the guy that was named the Most Valuable Player of such tournament which he lead in points, rebounds, assists and steals, the guy that at age 17 won a Silver medal at the 2008 Olympic playing significant minutes IS A SCRUB???????????????????, ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT THIS IS THE PLAYER WHO WAS A MOTHER FUCKING SCRUB IN EUROPE?

    ARE YOU ON DRUGS? ON TOP OF THAT YOU HAVE THE GUTS TO SAY THAT HE IS NOW A SUPER STAR IN THE NBA WHEN THE DUDE IS AVERAGING 10 MOTHER FUCKING POINTS A GAME WITH ONLY 35% FROM THE MOTHER FUCKING FLOOR

    ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
    ARE YOUUUUUUUUUUUU KIDDING MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE? HEY???????

    Ok I’m done Skip BASELESS’s of the world

    ReplyCancel
    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      Thanks for being a voice of reason.

      ReplyCancel
  99. Baller John
    11 years ago

    Ricky Rubio wasn’t a scrub in Euroleague. He didn’t even qualify for that. He’s easily the worst point guard I saw play in the Euroleague in the last 5 years

    Rubio wasn’t even to the level of a scrub. He was an an absolute out right joke in Euroleeague. I automatically disqualify anyone’s opinions or statements if they say anything to the contrary. If you are trying to claim Rubio was not horrible in the Euroleague then you NEVER EVER saw a Euroleague game and I don’t give a damn about your statements here because they are just more bull shit.

    Aleksandar Zoran is totally full of crap.

    ReplyCancel
  100. mike
    11 years ago

    Hey Baller John, I agree with you.
    I don’t care if you all say the world is round. It’s clearly flat. Anyone who’s walked around my farm knows it’s flat. Those NASA pictures of the Earth must be Hollywood fakes. Anyone who claims otherwise NEVER EVER walked around a dessert, and I don’t give a damn about your statements because they are just more BS! LOL

    ReplyCancel
  101. mike
    11 years ago

    BTW, NASA is American so you have to figure they are pro-NBA!

    ReplyCancel
  102. Aleksandar Zoran
    11 years ago

    ok so the list of NBA stars that have been scrub in Europe is this:

    ” Flip Murray

    Von Wafer

    Gary Neal

    Jeff Adrien

    Dajuan Summers ”

    hahahahahhahahahaha you know what I’m not even going to post any more in this particular thread, seriously this is just sad

    ReplyCancel
    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      To be truthful Aleksandar Zoran they never claimed they were stars, just playing on NBA rosters even though I have never heard of Adrien or Summers.

      ReplyCancel
  103. David
    11 years ago

    People claiming Rubio wasn’t a scrub in Euroleague need to be banned. That’s just trolling to an unacceptable level.

    Rubio was straight out horrible in Euroleague. He AVERAGED 2.3 air balls per game for the whole freaking season.

    ReplyCancel
    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      We’re not saying he was the best player but a scrub? Everything that Aleksandar Zoran wrote was true. Not only that HE WAS THE STARTING POINT GUARD ON THE EUROLEAGUE CHAMPION. I don’t care how bad he was, he could be the worst basketball player in the whole freaking world but if you are the starting point guard of a championship team than by definition you CANNOT be a scrub. And in that Euroleague final he played 17.5 minutes scored 9 points 4 rebounds 2 assists and 2 steals. (which may not seem that much but the most assists and steals anyone had in that game was 3)

      Calling Rubio a scrub in Euroleague is like calling Jason Kidd or Derek Fisher a scrub in the NBA.

      ReplyCancel
  104. Jones
    11 years ago

    I honestly think anyone saying Rubio wasn’t a scrub in Euroleague need their head examined. You are probably just insane.

    Yes. If you think Rubio didn’t suck in Euroleague then as far as I am concerned you are just flat out cuckoo for coco puffs.

    And it’s really funny to list a bunch of copied and pasted “accomplishments” from Wikipedia that most of them don’t even have a damn thing to do with the Euroleague. But then again you people wouldn’t know that since it’s real obvious that you don’t know a thing about Euroleague. Yeah. I read this whole long discussion.

    The people calling you guys nuts are right spot on. Mate, if you think Rubio wasn’t balls then you are just off your rocker mate.

    Rubio was an absolutely embarrassment he was so bad. Yea it makes it seem like you are all smoking the goods when you talk about how superior the NBA is when Rubio looked so good there and was so dreadful horrible in the lowly Euroleague.

    I also want to chime in on that Childress argument. Gabe, you are just a real tosser. Childress was barely even mediocre in Euroleague. Pretty much from reading through this whole thing I agree that Gabe, Mike and these kinds of guys are indeed trolls.

    They out themselves though what they claim here. I mean good god man, at least try to be somewhat tactful in your trolling methods. Rubio? You pick Rubio to brag on?

    The guy was the 5th best point guard on his own team for bloody sakes.

    Rubio in Euroleague was like a homeless man’s version of that Rafer Alston was in the NBA. You are pretty much certifiable if you think he wasn’t a scrub in Euroleague. So Aleks, mate, you are nuts if you believe any of the bollocks you just wrote there.

    ReplyCancel
    • Gabe
      11 years ago

      No one saying that Rubio was a scrub is acknowledging the fact that Rubio was the starting PG on the Euroleague champion. This basically sums up the whole discussion, not just about Rubio but basically the whole Euroleague vs NBA argument. We give facts and the other side just calls us trolls, says were nuts and that we don’t know anything about Euroleague.

      ReplyCancel
  105. Niko
    11 years ago

    http://www.euroleague.net/final-four/istanbul-2012/main-page/i/97242/7005

    CSKA Moscow forward Andrei Kirilenko:

    “I’m very happy to be here. The Euroleague is a great competition and the four best teams in Europe are playing this Final Four. It is going to be very tough to lift the trophy, but I think we did a pretty good job during the season and deserve to play here.

    “I am pretty sure all four teams here could be in the NBA playoffs.”

    ReplyCancel
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