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On Olympiacos Euroleague championship: From crises emerge heroes

May 16, 2012

Printezis: Hero of the day

European basketball fans know that history was made with Olympiacos’ stunning victory in the 2012 Euroleague championship. And so BallinEurope contributor, the self-proclaimed hoops history junkie Uygar Karaca looks back with perspective on the title bid, reaching all the back to the Great Depression of 1929 through the collapse of the Soviet Union and into today’s European Union crises. Whether or not God Himself played a role, the importance of the Reds’ win, as Karaca sees it, is history repeating itself. Gloriously.

This is how things have worked throughout history: From crises emerge heroes. And heroes create the losers. Sometimes underdogs have more advantages simply because they have nothing to lose. It’s not unusual that we see situations like a 10-man football team winning against a stronger side. Sometimes having options confuses minds, creates problems in concentration and ambiguity in methodology. Those who have no real options perhaps have just one way and they become focused on the goal, which brings about greater optimization and efficiency.

I was thinking like this before the match: “If CSKA wins, there will be not many stories but in case of Olympiacos winning, there will be a variety of options in exposing the classical underdog story with many different perspectives. I hope Olympiacos wins.”

The day before the Euroleague final, I was at Abdi İpekci Hall to see some action in the Nike International Junior Tournament. There I saw Stevislav Pesic, also one of the greatest coaches in European basketball, the man who famously brought a European title to both Germany and Alba Berlin, who were real underdogs. I thought that it would be a great idea to take some predictions from him. Said Pesic: “I was not suprised when Olympiakos won against Barcelona, because Barcelona changed its game this year and were somewhat inconsistent throughout the season, whereas Olympiakos improved much compared to the beginning of the season.”

And what about the final, that final in which nearly nobody gave Olympiacos a chance of winning? “I don’t think that they will suffer a severe loss. In fact, there is a strong possibility for a victory. They have a great team and a great coach [in Dusan] Ivkovic.”

Honestly speaking, it was Pesic who made me believe that Olympiacos really have a chance – or at least I expected them to take the match down to the last possession. It was a 50/50 thing for me before the game. Of course, as a talking head who had to commentate about a team that beat every team except Panathinaikos by 20 or 25 in the Greek league for a couple of years, I somehow made myself believe that the Reds could do it against the Red Army.

I was an economics graduate, so I’m some familiar with the methodology in literature. Here is the dominant and mainstream style: You make a model which you think will help to understand some phenomena. You collect your data from somewhere and put them into your fancy software as inputs. Then press “Enter” and voilà! Here is the result. If you are lucky enough, your hypothesis will be statistically significant.

The second methodology is about history. Approaching a phenomenon, you consider the sociological, cultural and economic background with a historical perspective. Despite being unorthodox, you can still find a lot of people who use this one. I like this method more and interestingly enough, it helps me to understand what happened that night, “The Famous Red-and-White Sunday.”

Keynes would have loved Olympiacos' victory

Flashback to 1929. The world was suffering with pain which will be never forgotten: The infamous “Great Depression” forced many countries, including the US, to reconsider their approach to economics. At the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th, the “laissez-faire” mentality, which was based on free trade and “no government intervention” principles dominated thought in the economic sphere. It seemed like the system was working but suddenly, the invisible hand ceased operation. Apparently there was a problem, which was really “Great” and people started thinking whether the market really could work without assistance. Along came British economist John Maynard Keynes, who suggested that in fact the government should intervene to “create” demand by investment. Many countries accepted that approach and the world took a deep breath for nearly 30 or 40 years. The crisis created Keynes.

The year 1991 symbolized the end of conglomerated Yugoslavia. In the summer of Eurobasket, the war broke out. Team Yugoslavia’s Slovenian guard Jure Zdovc immediately left and refused to take part in the final, which was won against Italy. In 1992, Yugoslavian clubs Partizan Belgrade, KK Split and Cibona Zagreb had to play their home matches in other countries because FIBA wanted it that way, obviously for security reasons. Partizan choose a small district of Madrid, Fuenlabrada, as a temporary home. Interestingly enough, nobody managed to beat them there, including Milano, who were among the favourites.

The Cinderella story continued in İstanbul, the host of European Champions’ Cup Final Four, where Partizan beat Milano again, in the semifinals. The famous drama was sealed in the end by the last-second game-winning shot, as we all know very well: Sasha Djordjevic was the hero and Sasha Danilovic was his prominent teammate. A young team led by rookie head coach Zeljko Obradovic and who had truly played at home only once in the season won the title. Crisis produced Partizan.

In March 1990, Lithuania declared independence. Of course, the task of rebuilding a nation state was not easy: There was hope but no money really. Like every country, they wanted to express themselves through sporting events and say to the world “We are here!” For this, there is no better way via the Olympic games. Team Lithuania’s NBA star Sarunas Marciulionis invested his own money out of his own $1.28 million contract with the Golden State Warriors.

Marciulionis did not stop there and with his teammates organised events to raise the funds necessary to land the Lithuanian team in Barcelona ‘92. The core of Soviet team was already Lithuanian before and the great players from the Baltic region – Marciulionis, Arvydas Sabonis, Rimas Kurtinaitis, Sergejus Jovaisa, Vlademaras Chomicius – led by the legendary Valdemaras Garastas, managed to beat the former Team USSR, known in those Olympics as the CIS, in the third-place match. Crisis brought Lithuania the bronze medal.

Team Lithuania, 1992: Tie-dyed and free

In 2001, the people were holding demonstrations in the streets of Argentina. Neverending inflation combined with a widening proletariat army who had lost its job made for a worsening situation and a furious public. The sequence of events eventually led the collapse of the government and its declaration of bankruptcy. On the other side of the continent, the FIBA World Championship was held in Indianapolis in 2002. The Argentinean team, coached by Ruben Magnano, included many stars such as Manu Ginobili but did not have much opportunity to work together; nevertheless, they were in the headlines with the first and maybe the greatest upset of the tournament. Team USA saw the end of its 58-0 winning streak in losing to the Argentineans. Despite a defeat in the final, crisis gave Argentina a silver medal.

In 2008, the international credit crunch returned. One of the most affected countries was Lithuania. The team from Vilnius, Lietuvos Rytas, was not able to keep its star US player Hollis Price because his contract was too costly. Moreover, Matt Nielsen left for Valencia and Rytas parted ways with Antanas Sireika after a heavy defeat to archrivals Žalgiris Kaunas. The new head coach, Rimas Kurtinaitis again, counted on domestic talent – Marijonas Petravicius, Mindaugis Lukauskis, Arturas Jomantas, Steponas Babrauskas and Donatas Zavackas – together with Chuck Eidson, who later became a Euroleague star, played as a team. Their opponent in the Eurocup final, BC Khimki Moscow region, had a star-studded squad with Carlos Delfino, Maciej Lampe, Kelly McCarthy, Jorge Garbajosa and a first-class coach in Sergio Scariolo. However, L. Rytas was the one to be victorious – again, perhaps helped by the crises.

Today, Greece is in a difficult situation to say the least. Maybe they counted on their European Union membership too much in the past, but somehow the country’s budget deficit had reached a substantial amount. After a point, as we all know very well, people started to get worried. This time it was Greeks who were in the streets, demonstrating for a better life. While governments tried to impose austerity packages, the EU meanwhile discussed Greece’s future in the elite club: Should they be expelled or was the country’s presence in the Eurozone too crucial for the integrity of the Union and without them the growth of the EU unsustainable?

This was a hopeless situation according to some; however, some optimists believed that surely there was a way out if the right people impose the right policies at the right time. All well and good, but who would those right people be? The leaders of political parties were some anxious to take responsibility alone. The country was without a government when the Olympiacos team landed in İstanbul.

Last summer, the Angelopoulos brothers, Olympiacos’ main financial resources, announced that they were close to ending financial support of the club. They were fed up with referees and poor decisions, the overall situation of Greek basketball and/or perhaps the harsh criticism from supporters after each unsuccessful result. In my opinion, maybe they figured that the Reds, despite having players such as Theo Papaloukas, Sofoklis Schortsanitis, Milos Teodosic, Linas Kleiza, Rasho Nesterovic and Josh Childress plus coaches like Panagiotis Giannakis, Pini Gherson and even Dusan Ivkovic in the past were just not able to beat Panathinaikos and never would be. The brothers might have seen no possibility in the near future to bring a European crown to Pireaus.

The Angelopouloses afterward changed their decision but with one clause: An inexpensive squad must be built. They said yes to Ivkovic but no to signing of star players. At the end of the season, nobody was sure as to whether the team would go on or not. Minutes before the game, a Greek journalist told a dear colleague of mine, sports geek Caner Eler, simply this: “No way are we a Eurocup team this year.”

Whatever happened in the finals was the repetition of history, albeit with an exciting and dramatic finish. This “Eurocup team” played against the shining stars of CSKA Moscow, fielding Teodosic, Nenad Krstic, Andrei Kirilenko, Victor Khryapa and Ramunas Siskauskas in its starting five. Well, as Final Four MVP Vassilis Spanoulis said after in the post-match press conference that God always helps those deserving.

I don’t know it was God or not, but I do know that today there is another champion arising out of crisis. Thank God it was European basketball!

Uygar Karaca is a sportswriter and TV commentator from Istanbul who is enthusiastic about European basketball. Combining the game with history and analysis; nothing is more delicious for the former small forward who is interested in coaching. He has no favourite teams or players; he’s just looking for stories. Karaca earned MA and BA degrees in Economics, explaining his tendency to see the socioeconomic aspects of the game. However, the reasons why he watches 20- and 30-year-old games again and again, looking for old newspapers that write about basketball, are still unknown even to him. The only things he knows for certain about the game is that the Americans invented it and the Yugoslavians perfected it.

May 16, 2012ballineurope
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This post was published on May 16, 2012
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Comments: 63
  1. Niko
    13 years ago

    http://www.euroleague.net/final-four/istanbul-2012/main-page/i/97679/7005

    That says it all. This is the most historic and memorable final ever.

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  2. BD
    13 years ago

    Indeed, the 2002 U.S. men’s international basketball team, which was predominantly African American, was eliminated by Yugoslavia in the quarterfinals and lost to Spain in the consolation game of the World Championships. The USA finished seventh, while the only African nation in the competition finished in an abysmal eleventh place. At the men’s competition in the 2004 Olympic Games, Argentina won the gold, Italy the Silver, and the United States the bronze. In the women’s competition, the United States won the Gold, Australia the Silver, and Russia the Bronze. No African nations qualified for the medal rounds at these Olympics. Of the 177 players drafted by the NBA from 2003 to 2005, 28 were Europeans, 2 were East Asians, 1 was from East Africa, 22 from West Africa, and 4 were from Latin America. Finally, the 2005 NBA championship was won by the San Antonio Spurs, who featured five international players on their twelve-man roster. Two of their three most important players, Tim Duncan and Tony Parker, have some detectable African ancestry. These results indicate that the “black” dominance of professional and international basketball is fading.

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  3. Jack
    13 years ago

    After watching the Euroleague playoffs and final four, and the NBA this year………Team USDA is in HUGE TROUBLE. They are going to get rocked big time if they have to face a team like Greece, Spain, Russia……..

    Kobe is old.

    Wade is old.

    LeBron is the most overrated athlete in world history, as always.

    Paul and Griffin can’t do anything without the refs bailing them out on ever call.

    Love can’t guard his own shadow.

    Westbrook is a huge ball hog with a zero basketball IQ

    D. Williams is fat and out of shape.

    Anthony plays no defense and is just a pure chucker.

    Chandler is soft.

    Team USA is going to be in HUGE trouble this summer. The only player that is playing proper basketball is Durant.

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  4. mike
    13 years ago

    Hey Jack, check your history. Kobe, Lebron, Wade DEMOLISHED Greece in 2008 on their way to the Gold. Spanoulis played terrible basketball as the US basically won by halftime.

    In 2010, the US sent a totally different team led by Durant, and still won the gold with very little opposition from Russia or any European team.

    Now this is my question: Are you retarded or do you have a learning disability? If the latter is true, I apologize and I will recommend a good doctor for you. LOL

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  5. Erik
    13 years ago

    Team USA won’t win gold. NO WAY IN HELL.

    I am watching the whole NBA playoffs and their supposed “best players” are so washed up and past their primes it isn’t even funny.

    I don’t think they have a chance in hell at winning gold.

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  6. Erik
    13 years ago

    Also, Spanoulis had 14 points and 6 assists against the USA in 2008, being double teamed 70% of the game.

    Yeah, that’s some “terrible basketball” against the “world’s best players”. Mike, lay off the crack pipe.

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    • Gabe
      13 years ago

      Yawn. US is the undefeated Olympic and world champions and again are the overwhelming favorites to win gold again. Bet against them if you are so confident because as a betting man and a fan of the USA it’s not even worth it because I would have to like wager $100 for the USA to win gold and only win like $80 or something crazy like that.

      And yes Spanoulis and Greece lost by 23 to the USA last Olympics in the last in the world championship were 11th place (lol) so I’m not so worried about them. The only team that can challenge the USA in an elimination game is Spain with the Gasol brothers and Ibaka in their front court. Yes the USA would kill them in a seven game series but in one game series the Gasol brothers can hold their own and if the USA has a bad game anything can happen.

      Greece in Russia? lol They have to worry more about beating Korean and Venezuela and even making the Olympics before they can even have the honor of being spanked (again) by the USA (or Spain).

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  7. Michael
    13 years ago

    USA team will be crap in 2012. Wade, Kobe, LeBron, Melo – they are all playing/played absolutely horrible in the NBA playoffs.

    If the tournament was held right now, it would be a repeat of 2002. USA won’t even medal with the way the players are playing right now.

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  8. Michael
    13 years ago

    Greece in Russia? lol They have to worry more about beating Korean and Venezuela and even making the Olympics before they can even have the honor of being spanked (again) by the USA (or Spain).

    Based on how freaking awesome those young Greek players were at the final four of the Euroleague – I think Team USA wants absolutely non part of Greece at an elimination round. That group is going to be better than Argentina’s golden generation was.

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    • Gabe
      13 years ago

      Final Four of the Euroleague? lol And I’m sure the Australians players were freaking awesome in the final of the Australian league. Euroleague is a minor league. So they beat a team with one NBA role player, an NBA scrub and a bunch of other Euroleague players!

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  9. Phileus
    13 years ago

    Hehehe, I knew it couldn’t be long before trolling started again.

    I’m honestly a little worried by Team USA myself. Kobe looks shockingly old and bad, especially this round. He has the mojo to be The Man, but does he still have the ability? I hope so. Westbrook is infuriatingly inconsistent; when he’s on, he’s on, but when he’s off, he still keeps chucking. If he won’t defer to the best scorer on the planet in OKC, what are the chances he’ll do it in the Olympics? Durant is clearly the best go-to guy on the team, but if he won’t take the alpha dog role in OKC, what are the chances he’ll do it in the Olympics? LeBron and Wade are an enigma to me. If you genetically engineered a basketball player, you would produce LeBron James, but why can’t he win anything? What the heck is up with Chris Paul this round? Carmelo has gone from elite to second-tier since his trade to the Knicks. As for Griffin, I’m not a fan of his at all. He’s even worse suited to FIBA than Howard, who at least is a world-class defender.

    For all their talk about “building a team” it looks like Team USA is still just a bunch of superstars thrown together, and a lot of these guys are fading fast after this lockout season.

    That said, it’s way too early to say there’s “no way in hell” Team USA will win gold. I just think it’s going to be a lot more interesting than people like Gabe think it will be. Then again, I also predicted that Team USA wouldn’t win gold in 2010.

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  10. Phileus
    13 years ago

    By the way Gabe, you really can’t look at past international tournaments, especially past tournaments four years ago, as predictors of success or failure. Four years is a heck of a lot of time for an athlete. In four years, green players can become elite veterans, and veterans can just become old. In the 2004 Olympics, for example, Melo and LBJ were clearly not nearly the players they were in the 2008 Olympics. Making comparisons to the 2012 WC is more reasonable, but there’s still a lot than can change in that time.

    You also can’t discount the compressed schedule’s effect on NBA players in all Olympic teams this year, especially the ones playing deep in the playoffs. I wonder how Spain will make out. Ibaka will probably be playing another round, Gasol (Pau) already looks gassed, though Marc exited the playoffs in stable form at least. But I wouldn’t be too surprised to see another Howard/Rose/Bosh situation come up to compromise some national team’s roster even more.

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    • Gabe
      13 years ago

      Yes Phileus you can look at past tournaments. The US has won the past two tournaments with completely different teams. It just shows how much better they are than the competition. I remember 2010 people were predicting how the USA would “not even medal” and it was a cake walk. And that was with their B-team.

      And LBJ isn’t the player he was in 2008? Yeah he’s even better.

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  11. Michael
    13 years ago

    From what I have seen this year down the stretch and now in the playoffs, the most often cited Team USA of,

    Paul/Williams/Westbrook
    Kobe/Wade
    LeBron/Melo
    Durant/Griffin
    Love/Chandler/ and then some player X for another big body

    could definitely have some issues at the Olympics.

    Chris Paul – it is very apparent that without the refs taking all his flops as fouls, he is basically a slow, short guy with almost no athletic ability at all. He has the brains, the fire, the skill, but if the refs don’t buy his antics, he is EASILY shut down by any semi decent defense.

    Williams – honestly, this guy was very mediocre last year and this year and he didn’t even play well in Europe, truth be told and not having all the USA homer glasses on. Besiktas got way better after he left.

    The Nets have been a total joke. This guy used to be DAMN good, but he really seems to be lazy and fat and just in general like he does not care.

    Westbrook – dude has out of this world talent and athletic ability. He is a hell of a freak. But, he also appears to have the basketball IQ of a rock. And he seems to be selfish almost to an absurd degree.

    Kobe – hey, I love Kobe. My favorite player EVER. But he was totally gassed last year and this year the same. The excuse last year was his knee. Well, what is it this year? Mike Brown? That Fisher is gone? We have to be realistic here. Kobe is clearly well on the down slope and decline of his career. He is struggling now 2 straight years in the playoffs.

    Wade – compared to 4 years ago…it’s shocking how much he has lost athletically. He just isn’t anywhere near to that player. Really, he has been even scrub like in several playoff games. He is starting to trend into the Steve Francis and T-Mac area of what happens when these guys hit 30. I’m not even sure if he could make the team if it was just purely on an open tryout.

    LeBron – for real, this guy just can’t win. He’s like McGrady. I think people have finally seen it now. Sure, some idiots still call him the best in the world (Barkley) but the reality is that he has zero competitive fire. If Kobe does not hit that 4 point play 4 years ago, we are still probably calling him LeBronze. LeBron could probably almost by himself carry USA to the quarters, but what the hell is he going to do in a big game if it gets close? He;s going to do NOTHING as he has proven for YEARS now in both the NBA and FIBA.

    Melo – well, once he was such a great scorer and so tough in FIBA. Now? He appears to be fat, lazy, and simply refuses to play defense. He can still flat out light it up, but how will this mesh on a team with Westbrook and Durant and Kobe?

    Durant – he’s great. He would have to keep on like 2010 and continue to be the star of the team. But, with Westbrook who already hogs the ball like crazy on his own team, plus Kobe and his ego and Melo who is useless besides scoring, I mean he does nothing but score…well, I don’t see Durant getting the touches that he did 2 years ago. Not even close.

    With that as it is, Durant takes way too many jumpers and that is what has beaten then Thunder every year in the playoffs. He’s obsessed with the 20-30 foot jumper and it just takes ONE and shooting night in a single elimination round.

    Griffin – he’s a complete freak of nature, but he also seems to be very off mentally. No defense, no rebounds once the playoffs got physical, no physical play, flops around all over the place on both ends of the court. He’s limited on offense, with everything being a dunk or a face up move. He does not have a jumper. His game isn’t going to work in FIBA in a half court against a really big strong and good team.

    Against Lithuania, Brazil, Greece, Russia, Spain, etc. this guy is going to be just running into people and trying to flop. I don’t see it working.

    Love – great offense, great shooting, great rebounding. I love me some Kevin Love. However, he’s massively undersized and is going to get owned like a mother in a half court against teams like Greece and Spain in the low post.

    Yeah he can draw bigs out, but then again another team can just put a mobile 4 on him and make him create his own shot, which he isn’t good at. In the low post he can do damage, but how many looks is he getting with that team? With Westbrook and everyone else fighting for the ball.

    Chandler is soft. I don’t know why he gets so much hype. I like him as a player and he does some great things, but the reality is that he’s still soft. I can’t imagine USA centers trying to match with Vougioukas, Bourousis, Schortsanitis. OUCH. They are giving up like 40 pounds MINIMUM against a big team like that.

    Even teams like Brazil, Lithuania, Russia are going to be too big. And do we really think Love and Chandler can handle Spain’s front line? Come on now, let’s get real here.

    The US team had a lot of success with pressure defense, using speed, quickness, and athleticism to force turnovers with their length. Then they got out and ran and had a dunk fest. That was the formula in 2008 and 2010.

    OK, so now besides Westbrook who fits this on defense? I guess add Chandler because he can block shots and get the ball out. OK, no one else. On offense it’s just Westbrook and Griffin. How much playing time is Westbrook logging when Kobe, Wade, Paul, and Williams are on the team?

    Even if he gets Williams spot in the rotation, you are talking what, 15 minutes a game? You know damn well Paul, Wade, and Kobe are not playing less than 20 minutes.

    Basically, everything Team USA had going for them in 2006 (which didn’t work out, but the premise was there to build on), 2008, and 2010 is now gone. And everything that USA had problems with in 2002 and 2004 appears to be back again.

    They won’t have an athletic, speed, and quickness advantage unless they run out Westbrook, LeBron, Durant, Griffin for the most minutes. And the problem is that team does not fit. Westbrook and LeBron can’t play with just one ball. Durant needs his touches, which he won’t get with those two.

    Everyone is talking about how Argentina looks old and is old, and they are old. Do people forget that USA’s core has been there since 2004/2006? Guess what? USA got old too. Those young studs from 6-8 years ago look old now.

    Paul
    Kobe
    LeBron
    Durant
    Love

    Wade – 6th man

    That’s probably the closing lineup that Coach K tries to use to close out good teams in big games. It looks amazing on paper by the names. But in reality, that team is going to be easy to get into the half court.

    You can keep that team from running and hell, they won’t even want to run. And that team is going to have MAJOR issues in a half court FIBA battle with hand checking, pure zone rules, smaller court, refs that allow more contact and more physical play, and guys that can stand in the lane.

    If the players play in the Olympics, like they are playing now………Team USA is NOT winning the gold. I think that a really big physical team (Greece, Russia, Lithuania, Brazil) is going to be a huge problem also. Not that they lose to them, but it could happen.

    With Spain, Gasol brothers had down years and Pau looks old and tired also. Navarro has a bad foot injury and it is causing him a lot of issues. San Emeterio has had some injury issues. Who knows what Rudy will be able to do, coming off back surgery.

    The teams that everyone has pegged for the final, have some issues. And the Argentina thing, where people say they can medal is hilarious. Only at an old folks home.

    Brazil, Russia, Lithuania, Greece, Macedonia, someone is coming as a dark horse and winning it I think, like Argentina in ’04. I won’t say France because they have no outside shooting.

    Spain can’t win without Navarro doing his normal tricks and with Pau tired and spent. USA I don;t think can win a half court slug fest with there old players.

    I think it’s some team from Brazil, Russia, Lithuania, Greece, Macedonia that wins it.

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    • Gabe
      13 years ago

      Brazil, Russia, Lithuania, Greece, Macedonia? Macedonia? Are you serious? It will be a miracle for Macedonia just to advance out of the qualifying tournament and get into the Olympics! You might as well predict Angola or Nigeria to win it. The favorites are USA then Spain, after that Argentina and France. All other teams are long shots. Brazil, Russia Lithuania or Greece have never won a gold medal in the Olympics or the WC. This isn’t Eurobasket, this is the big league where the USA sends their best. Since NBA players have been allowed to play the USA has won gold 4 out of 5 Olympics. 2004 was a once in a lifetime event.

      USA is going to have James and Durant on the same team! Now team will be able to handle that. People predicted the USA would lose in 2008 and 2010 how did that work out?

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    • Gabe
      13 years ago

      “Williams – honestly, this guy was very mediocre last year and this year and he didn’t even play well in Europe, truth be told and not having all the USA homer glasses on. Besiktas got way better after he left.”

      Yes he only scored 50 points in one game and has his jersey retired to the rafters when he left after 15 games.

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  12. Gabe
    13 years ago

    And people are mention how players are struggling in the NBA playoffs. Well it’s the NBA playoffs with the best athletes in the world. Remember most national teams are made of Euroleague players who wouldn’t even get off the bench in the NBA, forgot about getting minutes in the playoffs.

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    • Phileus
      13 years ago

      I know, Gabe – my point about the playoffs is that it’s showing how worn down NBA players are, even compared to the beginning of the season. Teams that go deep won’t have a long break before Team USA training camp, so fatigue is a serious issue.

      Michael (for once I’m not sure you’re Apollo, because Apollo could never bring himself to say anything good about an American NBA player :P), I agree with a lot of your points, especially about Bryant, Durant, and Westbrook. However I definitely don’t agree about Chandler. Chandler started his career as a “softer” finesse player, but he’s evolved into a damn good defensive center, and more importantly, players respect him as a leader. I don’t think he’s overrated, he’s just getting the recognition he deserves (since last year) after a lot of people thought his career was done. I don’t know about Bourosis, but if Schortsanitis is the same fat-ass who did horribly in Summer League a few years ago then I’m not too concerned 😛

      I also disagree that Paul is an unathletic player who relies on flopping. He is a flopper, for sure, but he’s also a brilliant all-around point guard who, when he’s injury-free, is almost certainly the best PG in the NBA (though I prefer Rose for scoring). I just think he’s got some lingering injury issues, because his play is way off right now. I also don’t know what to expect out of D-Will. Like Melo, he’s been in poor form this season, but he had a few brilliant games that reminded us who he can be.

      As for LeBron, well, I think we will learn a lot about him from these playoffs. He has enough talent to almost accidentally win, but does he *need* to win like Jordan, AI, and Kobe?

      It’s a shame that players like Bynum and (to a lesser degree) Rondo have no interest in playing for the national team. In the playoffs, the best performers still playing are Duncan (never will play in a FIBA game again), KG (is he even on the Team USA roster?), LBJ (can he win?), and Durant. It’s a little discouraging. I’m not saying that Team USA is so bad that it won’t get gold or medal, but it’s definitely not in the best shape it could be – or even in good shape at all.

      Come on, Gabe, say something to give me hope!

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      • Gabe
        13 years ago

        James and Durant on the same team.

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  13. Vic
    13 years ago

    Team USA of 2010 won the gold without really being tested. The only teams which had a chance to beat USA are teams who have excellent guards. That said, only Brazil, Greece Spain and Argentina were the teams who had the roster to beat them, but out of these four, only Brazil played the Americans (who almost lost). Ofcourse it’s not team USA’s fault the other teams were knocked out. But teams like Turkey, Russia (of 2010), Lithuania, although decent teams, were not the teams to put the Americans to the test, because they lack the elite guards to handle the pressure of a roster full of NBA players.

    So far, the USA only lost to teams who had excellent guards. Have a look at the rosters of Yugoslavia Argentina, Lithuana, Greece when they beat the USA and I guarantee you will see some of the best international guards in their prime.

    In the coming Olympics I don’t think there will be a big difference between Spain, Greece, Russia and France. The power of Spain is Navarro and Pau Gasol, and they are both in decline. Also Rubio is injured. In other words, Spain is declining, while others are becoming better. France has a lot of talent, but seems to me like a cheaper version of the USA. Greece and Russia have been rebuilding and are getting stronger. The Greeks have not been sending their best players for some years now, but this year some of their best will rejoin and retired players will be replaced by some promising talents. These talented players will possibly be the biggest threat of the USA in a couple of years. But not yet. The next WC perhaps.

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  14. Paolo
    13 years ago

    Gabe says:
    May 18, 2012 at 4.17pm

    Brazil, Russia, Lithuania, Greece, Macedonia? Macedonia? Are you serious? It will be a miracle for Macedonia just to advance out of the qualifying tournament and get into the Olympics! You might as well predict Angola or Nigeria to win it. The favorites are USA then Spain, after that Argentina and France. All other teams are long shots. Brazil, Russia Lithuania or Greece have never won a gold medal in the Olympics or the WC. This isn’t Eurobasket, this is the big league where the USA sends their best. Since NBA players have been allowed to play the USA has won gold 4 out of 5 Olympics. 2004 was a once in a lifetime event.

    USA is going to have James and Durant on the same team! Now team will be able to handle that. People predicted the USA would lose in 2008 and 2010 how did that work out?

    You obviously don’t know shit about basketball. Stick to the NBA. Team USA is going to struggle like hell this summer. Argentina? Wow, the fact that you put Argentina as the 3rd best team shows what an epic moron you are.

    Even in Argentina’s own press their basketball analysts all said that just making it out of the group would be a success.

    If you actually believe this crap you are saying here, then you really lack general basketball knowledge beyond the NBA.

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  15. Paolo
    13 years ago

    Gabe says:
    May 18, 2012 at 4.30pm

    “Williams – honestly, this guy was very mediocre last year and this year and he didn’t even play well in Europe, truth be told and not having all the USA homer glasses on. Besiktas got way better after he left.”

    Yes he only scored 50 points in one game and has his jersey retired to the rafters when he left after 15 games.
    Reply

    EuroChallene is considered as the 13th best league in Europe. So he scored 50 points in a game in Europe’s 13th best league and 57 points in a game in the NBA. I think I am just not going to read any more of your comments because you are an idiot.

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    • Gabe
      13 years ago

      Eurochallenge is the third best league in Europe and retired to the rafters for 15 games? What an honor!

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  16. Paolo
    13 years ago

    Vic says:
    May 19, 2012 at 4.20am

    Team USA of 2010 won the gold without really being tested. The only teams which had a chance to beat USA are teams who have excellent guards. That said, only Brazil, Greece Spain and Argentina were the teams who had the roster to beat them, but out of these four, only Brazil played the Americans (who almost lost). Ofcourse it’s not team USA’s fault the other teams were knocked out. But teams like Turkey, Russia (of 2010), Lithuania, although decent teams, were not the teams to put the Americans to the test, because they lack the elite guards to handle the pressure of a roster full of NBA players.

    So far, the USA only lost to teams who had excellent guards. Have a look at the rosters of Yugoslavia Argentina, Lithuana, Greece when they beat the USA and I guarantee you will see some of the best international guards in their prime.

    In the coming Olympics I don’t think there will be a big difference between Spain, Greece, Russia and France. The power of Spain is Navarro and Pau Gasol, and they are both in decline. Also Rubio is injured. In other words, Spain is declining, while others are becoming better. France has a lot of talent, but seems to me like a cheaper version of the USA. Greece and Russia have been rebuilding and are getting stronger. The Greeks have not been sending their best players for some years now, but this year some of their best will rejoin and retired players will be replaced by some promising talents. These talented players will possibly be the biggest threat of the USA in a couple of years. But not yet. The next WC perhaps.
    Reply

    Yes pretty much my thoughts exactly. I am also very intrigued by this young generation of Greek players. It reminds me of the Spain’s golden generation of Pau, Reyes, Calderon, Navarro, Mumbru, Cabezas, B. Rodriguez, Lopez. Players born in 1979 to 1981 range, and centered on their incredible 1980 generation of Reyes, Lopez and of course led by Pau and Navarro.

    That was the basis for Spain winning a gold at the FIBA world cup and also for their 2nd place in the Olympics in 2008. Some big stars, surrounded by great role players, all coming together at the same time and having known each other and how to play together. Then they added some champion role player veteran leaders to guide them with experience, like Garbajosa and Jimenez, and good coaching.

    The next thing you know, Spain has a world up gold in 2006 and a silver at the Olympics in 2008, after giving USA all they could handle, even though Calderon was injured and didn’t play.

    This is the formula for building a team that can truly threaten the USA and Greece has it right now. I think if Diamantidis was to play this summer, then Greece is top threat for USA. Even without him they will be interesting to see.

    Take some stars like Spanoulis, Bourousis, Zisis, add the veteran champion caliber role players like Fotsis, Kaimakoglou, Vasileiadis, Printezis, and then add all these young players coming from the same generation.

    Koufos
    Calathes
    Sloukas
    Mantzaris
    Papanikoloau
    Pappas
    Bramos

    Greece has their gold generation coming up. I will bet right now that if Spanoulis stays healthy that they can win one of the next 2 world tournaments. Those young Greek players like Mantzaris, Pappas, Sloukas, Papanikoloau are terrific. Mantzaris, Sloukas, Papanikoloau were leading their team to a Euroleague title at 21-22 years old.

    That’s only happened one time in European basketball history and back then the level of Euroleague was much lower than now. When players like Galis and Petrovic could average over 30 a game, and now the best scorers average 16-17 a game.

    Greece has like 4 upcoming young players in the impact of Rubio. It really is sad to me to compare to my Italian team, where all we have in the promising future seems like Gentile, Melli, and Aradori. Great talents, but they don’t have the defense and basketball IQ like the Greek young stars do. I guess we should not be surprised though as those young Greeks won everything at the youth levels and just dominated.

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  17. mike
    13 years ago

    Hey you Greece basketball lovers, I have news for you: Greece hasn’t done a thing in international basketball since they upset the US in 2006. Learn this: That was a once in a lifetime event akin to a meteor crashing on the earth! The ball is round, and even the US beat the Soviet Union in ice hockey in the 1980 Winter Olympics, but you didn’t see Americans suddenly saying we necessarily were the best hockey nation on Earth. Everyone knew that was a rare event. If we played the Soviet Union ten times, they would have won 9 times.

    Having said that, the US looks like they have some issues with age and injuries, but if the 2010 B team can win gold, it follows that a combination of the 2008 and 2010 teams will be hard to beat. Imagine LBJ and Durant on the same team. And what? You counter with Spanoulis? He couldn’t even get off the Houston bench. He was a total FAILURE in the NBA, and he knows it too. He went home to Greece crying, “Mommy”! 14 points and 6 assists is meaningless if you play in a BLOWOUT LOSS to the US, ERIC. Any decent player can put up numbers if your team basically lost by halftime. I still remember a bit of the game: right before halftime, coming off a S/R Spanoulis is switched on by Bosh, and is blocked at the top of the 3 point arc after he couldn’t even get past the 6’11 Bosh. EMBARRASSING!

    You flat earth society Euro guys can say all you want, but facts are facts! Fact 1: the Euroleague is a minor league composed of NBA scrubs, role players, and even worse , the never has beens. Fact 2. The US has solidifies it’s hold in basketball, NBA or international with overwhelming dominance. All discussions should emanate from these 2 facts. Got it?!

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    • Vic
      13 years ago

      Paolo said:

      Koufos
      Calathes
      Sloukas
      Mantzaris
      Papanikoloau
      Pappas
      Bramos

      We should also include katsivelis among others. This fellow is 20 and is a great prospect. Also played a couple of decent EL games this year. He also plays for Olympiakos. We’ll see how they’ll evolve their game. They still have a lot of work to do.

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  18. mike
    13 years ago

    Hey Paulo, do you know how to read? Michael said DWill didn’t do that well in Europe, so Gabe said he scored 50 points. So what’s wrong with that? The point is how can you say Dwill didn’t do well when his number is retired, and he had a 50 point game? Huh!? Besiktas practically treated him like a god retiring his jersey after 15 games. C’mon!

    You retards better learn to reason a little better before commenting on this site. By the way, Paulo, are you a basketball scout? Your assessment of those young Greek players is way overrated. Like Rubio? C’mon. Are they better than Spanoulis, the Houston Rocket scrub?. Doing well in the Euroleague is one thing, first see how they do against real top level competition. Send them over here in the NBA D-league, or the Las Vegas Summer league, and see if they can make it. Then we’ll talk.

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  19. Vic
    13 years ago

    Hey Mike,

    Rubio is not anywhere near the level of Spanoulis in the EL. In fact, last season Rubio was somewhat of a dissapointment. He was also nowhere near the other ‘NBA scrub’ player, Navarro, who happens to be the leader of Rubio’s former clubteam and NT. Hate to ruin your fantasy, but every basketball expert in Europe would agree with that. In fact, Spanoulis and Navarro are better than 90% of the international players in the NBA.

    I’m glad Rubio’s game works out better in the NBA, but in Europe, at least last year, young players like Nick Calathes performed better than Rubio, and the performance of some of Olympiakos’ youngsters this year was at least as good as Rubio’s game ever was in the EL. Especially Papanikolaou who imo was the MVP of the Final Four.

    Your criteria, performing well in the NBA as the standard to measure someone’s skills, is outdated. Any scout knows that.

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  20. Gabe
    13 years ago

    Until someone beat the USA they are still the Olympic and World champions. People were predicting the US would lose in 2010 too. I think it’s just wishful thinking. There is more of a chance of Puerto Rico beating Greece than there is of Greece beating the USA.

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  21. Jonathan
    13 years ago

    EuroChallenge isn’t the 3rd best league in Europe Gabe. PLEASE STOP TROLLING HERE ALL THE TIME.

    It’s no better than 12-13 best league in Europe. If you actually believe that EuroChallenge is the 3rd best league in Europe, then you are so hopeless that this site is doomed to forever be cursed by your presence.

    I can’t decide if you are completely retarded, a troll of unparalleled levels, or both. But calling EuroChallenge the third best league in Europe is easily THE single craziest thing ever claimed in this site.

    I come here to read articles and I just see you trolling all the time. I normally refrain, but that was too much. It can’t be allowed to let you make such incredibly outrageous claims here as something like the EuroChallenge being the 3rd best league in Europe.

    That is simply egregious and unforgivable in the level of trolling that you are doing there. I think that really, everything some others ay about you is definitely true after you made that ludicrous claim.

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  22. Jonathan
    13 years ago

    About Spanoulis and being a “scrub” in the NBA. Spanoulis is one of the very best handful of European players of the last 25 years. European, not Euroleague.

    Rubio was never above at best, a mediocre Euroleague player. Spanoulis is far better than guys like Lawson, Dragic, Rubio, Jennings, none of them ever did anything at all in Euroleague.

    If you think Spanoulis can’t play then you should not be commenting here about the prospects of Team USA against international teams. Mike says he remembered Spanoulis could not do anything against the US in 2008. Funny, because I remember from that game how Doug Collins said that he, D’Antoni, and Coach K all put Spanoulis in the top 5 best players in the entire world. So I guess Mike has a selective memory as they say.

    Personally, I would take Spanoulis over any point guard in the NBA. Who is the best current point guard in the NBA? Rose, who relies almost all on athletic ability and is coming off a surgery that robs you of it? Williams, who is fat and out of shape?

    Paul who really is very inconsistent? Nash at 38 years old?

    Quite frankly, as someone who watches a lot of NBA and Euroleague, Spanoulis is much better than any point guard in the NBA. He’s like a prime Steve Nash on offense, and added to that great defense. The only player in the NBA that I would take over Spanoulis is Durant.

    Mike, you should keep your mouth shut, if you don’t ever watch Euroleague, which you obviously don’t. You sound like such a rude jerk to be calling people idiots and rudely making personal attacks against them, when you yourself have never seen any of these players play.

    The only thing worse than an ignorant, is an ignorant that acts like an expert. That’s what you are doing. BTW, the NBA playoffs have been pure trash this year. The only team playing good basketball is the Spurs. What does it say for the level of the NBA when a team comprised of OLD players, NBA scrubs, and a bunch of guys that were barely even average players in Europe is the best team so far in the NBA playoffs?

    The level of the NBA gets noticeably worse with each passing season. If you think it some kind of holy grail of basketball then you are living in the past. This isn’t 1992 anymore.

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  23. Jonathan
    13 years ago

    Mike – “Doing well in the Euroleague is one thing, first see how they do against real top level competition. Send them over here in the NBA D-league, or the Las Vegas Summer league, and see if they can make it. Then we’ll talk.”

    Did this freaking guy just say that the D-League and the Summer League are a higher level of competition than the Euroleague?

    My GOD

    The ban hammer should be enacted.

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  24. Jonathan
    13 years ago

    Gabe –

    Until someone beat the USA they are still the Olympic and World champions. People were predicting the US would lose in 2010 too. I think it’s just wishful thinking. There is more of a chance of Puerto Rico beating Greece than there is of Greece beating the USA.

    If you believe that then why can’t you just make statements like that and let it go? Why do you have to start trolling with crazy, crazy, CRAZY as hell comments like saying EuroChallenge is #3 best league in Europe?

    Do you have any idea at all how stupid you look to others when you say something like that? Have you ever actually looked at some of the teams that compete in EuroChallenge? I have to say you say one thing in one post, which is opinion, but is reasonable and not trolling.

    But then in another post you come with outlandish stuff that is just too ridiculous to even discuss. So it appears that you are maybe not a troll, but just are completely stupid as they come. Which is it?

    I am not trying to be rude or mean like Mike is being. But I want to know from you yourself. Do you really think EuroChallenge is the third best league in Europe? Tell me. So I can know for sure if you are trolling or if you just have no clue in hell as to what the hell you are saying here.

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    • Gabe
      13 years ago

      The EuroChallenge (called the FIBA Europe League in 2003–05, and EuroCup in 2005–08)[1] is the 3rd tier level transnational men’s professional club basketball competition in Europe. It is organized and run by FIBA Europe. It is not to be confused with the EuroCup Challenge – the now defunct 4th tier level transnational men’s professional club basketball competition in Europe, which was also organized and run by FIBA Europe, and played during the 2002–03 to 2006–07 seasons.

      from wiki

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  25. mike
    13 years ago

    Gabe, I agree. Greece has a better chance of losing to Puerto Rico that it has a chance of beating the US. For Pete’s sake, Greece is led by Spanoulis, who wasn’t even one of the 5 best players in Houston, let alone the entire NBA! Your right Gabe, NBA teams and even some international teams treated him like their bitch.

    He’s a decent player(Spanoulis), but just not good enough to be a consistent rotation player in the NBA. In Euroleague, he’s great, but a lot of NBA scrubs or role players become instant MVP’s or make all-league teams in the Euroleague anyway.

    Vic, I never said Navarro was a scrub because he was a good player in the NBA. Rubio was constrained by Fiba rules and he needed to be with the vastly more athletic players in the NBA. It’s like in the NCAA. Sometimes you draft a youngster who has a higher top end of talent even though his statistics in college weren’t that great. Jordan, Ewing, Olajuwan,Barkley were much better NBA players than NCAA players. Just off the top of my head.

    You just know given enough time and freedom with NBA rules, talent wins out. Granted that some Euroleague players had better stats than Rubio(which Timberwolves scouts were worried about), but, in the end, Rubio’s vision and defensive versatility, was worth the risk. He looks like he will a very special player in the next couple of years. Team Spain agrees, btw. He is a big loss for them, to be sure. I felt that with Rubio, Spain had a chance to upset the US . Maybe a 1 in 5 chance.

    With Greece beating the US, if the planets aligned properly, and you flat earth society guys prove the earth is flat, …. maybe. LOL

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  26. NBA fan
    13 years ago

    Spanoulis is an awesome player. Anyone that says he is just barely good enough to play in the NBA simply is retarded.

    Spanoulis is easily in the top 5-10 players in the whole planet.

    Mike you have never seen Spanoulis play and you have no idea who he is, or what he even looks like. At least I hope that is the case. Otherwise, you really are a big time tool. Because if you have seen him play and you actually have the balls to say that that he would barely make an NBA rotation, well damn son, you seriously set the troll standard at a really high to attain bar here.

    Sorry dude, but anything and everything you say here is automatically null and void. Your opinion means nothing and has zero value, because your statements about Spanoulis are proof that you know absolutely nothing about the game of basketball.

    Guys like you give NBA fans everywhere a black eye on the rep of NBA fans worldwide. People with real b-ball knowledge would laugh their friggin’ assess off at you.

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  27. Niko
    13 years ago

    Sofo won’t play for Greece this summer. He has a meniscus injury and will have knee surgery when the season ends.

    http://www.jpost.com/Sports/Article.aspx?id=256091

    Which is in a few days for his team Maccabi. So he will miss the this summer.

    Also, that prima donna jerk Diamantidis gave another interview where he said he refuses to play for Greece anymore. He really is a huge disgrace.

    Mavrokefalidis has a knee injury and hasn’t played in a long time. Apparently he needs s surgery too.

    So, I expect Greek national team to be something like:

    Spanoulis/Sloukas
    Zisis/N. Calathes
    Vasileiadis/Papanikoloau
    Fotsis/Printezis
    Bourousis/Koufos

    The last two places should probably be between Mantzaris, Pappas, Vougioukas, Bramos, and Kaimakoglou. I would also like for P. Calathes and Kavvadas to be invited to the training, but I doubt if they will be.

    Anyway, Greece will have at least the 3rd best team on paper. We will get put into the same group with Argentina. I cannot wait. REVENGE for 2004 and 2008 will come. Hopefully we get to send them home in the group stage. Anyway, I feel sorry for them having to play us this time, because they are going to get it.

    Greek NT has unbelievable future.

    Sloukas
    Calathes brothers
    Bramos
    Pappas
    Papanikoloau
    Chrysikopoulos
    Mantzaris
    Koufos
    Kanonidis
    Kavvadas
    Bogris
    Sarikopoulos
    Giannopulos
    Kaselakis
    Motsenigos
    Sparopoulos
    Larenzakis
    Papantoniou
    Katsivelis
    Dimakopoulos
    Zoumpos
    Chatzicharalampolous
    Soulis
    Sinnis
    Maragkos
    Georgalis
    Papagiannis
    Koukoulas
    Georgakis
    Karathanasis

    I can go on for days…….Greece has best basketball school programs in the world. Our 1990, 1994, and 1997 generations are said to be the best in the world.

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    • Phileus
      13 years ago

      Why won’t Diamantidis play for the national team?

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  28. Vic
    13 years ago

    Mike, you use the NBA standard to judge who is good and who is bad. Believe me, Spanoulis is a better player than Rubio. As for the NBA, Spanoulis left by his own will. When he quit playing for Houston, the Spurs wanted him on the roster, but he has refused to continue his career in the NBA for personal reasons. Popovich has said repeatedly that he wants Spanoulis on the team and Tony parker, in many occasions during international competitions, has invited Spanoulis to come over. As far as I know, the rockets didn’t want to let him go either. They wanted him to have patience.

    The man wants to stay in Europe. Let’s respect his choice and don’t judge his NBA potential by this one season in Houston.

    As for the Euroleague vs the NBA. The NBA overal has the most talent and is the best league, but the EL has some players which belong to world elite. NBA promotes individual talent, while the EL promotes teamplay. Numerous players who played in both leagues said that the very best EL teams could play in the NBA. We, as basketball fans, should be delighted that the game is expanding.

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  29. Gabe
    13 years ago

    Reading these posts make me laugh. Yes I respect Greece and believe they are the 4th best team in the world after USA, Spain and Argentina. But Greece and Spanoulis have never won a gold medal in an Olympics or World Championships. The best they have achieved is silver in 2006 which is no better than what Italy achieved in 2004 or what Turkey did in 2010. In fact in the last too global tournaments they have not even made the semi-finals. Until they actually win either Olympic or World Championship gold they will never be the same level as USA, Spain or Argentina.

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  30. Vic
    13 years ago

    Who said Greece is about Spanoulis? Why all this emphasis on Spanoulis. Greece and Spanoulis? Give me a break. It’s like saying Germany and Nowitzky. Bad comparison. Spanoulis is not even the best player of Greece. He is one of the best, but not the best. Papaloukas was the core of the team when Greece beat the USA. And let’s not forget that he left Panathinaikos because he didn’t want to be second man after Diamantidis. That said, Argentina may have won the gold in 2004, but they were certainly not better than Greece after that. I wiould say more or less the same level. Too bad Greece is full of absentees ever since 2009. I think many players will be absent this year as well. Diamantidis, Koufos, Sofo won’t be part of the roster. They could have won a medal.

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    • Gabe
      13 years ago

      Argentina has been better than Greece in every tournament except 2006. In 2008 Argentina beat Greece in the quarter-finals. In 2010 Argentina was 5th place while Greece was 11th place. Even in 2006 Argentina lost to Spain and Pau Gasol by only one point in the semi-finals before Spain without Pau went on to defeat Greece by 23 points in the final.

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  31. Aleksandar Zoran
    13 years ago

    peanut butter and jelly time Apollo? or should I say Johnathan?

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  32. mike
    13 years ago

    Hey Vic, I was half kidding about Spanoulis. I have seen him play many times, against the US in 06 and 08, in the NBA with Houston, and some Euro league games. In the NBA, against my Sixers, Van Gundy put him in the game in a blowout situation after he complained of lack of minutes, and he played terribly against the Sixers. I was actually rooting for him to do well, since I usually root for internationals to do well in the NBA. I think I pity them a little.

    But no, he did not play well in the NBA at all. You are correct that Houston felt in time, he would be a good PG, and the Spurs also believed that, but alas, we cannot prove Spanoulis can be a good PG in the NBA, except for that one shining moment in 2006 against the Americans.

    Also, I am a basketball fan, and I appreciate good basketball. I know many Euro teams execute their offenses as well as or even better than many NBA teams. Internationals have changed the NBA game in many ways improving shooting %’s and teamwork. What European teams should improve on is their individual athleticism, and defensive pressure. The difference is really stark especially against the US.

    Finally, if you Euro guys talk sense, I will talk sense.

    Hey, if you will talk sense, I will talk sense.

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  33. Phileus
    13 years ago

    “We, as basketball fans, should be delighted that the game is expanding.”

    Hooray! Vic wins the award for making the most sensible comment of the year in Ball in Europe!

    The Spurs are a perfect example of the good part of the globalization of basketball. They are the best team in the NBA right now, absolutely wonderful to watch, and their second (or first?) and third best players (Parker and Ginobili), plus two role players (Splitter and Fat Boris), are international (sorry, I won’t count the US Virgin Islands as “international”).

    The Spurs built their team by being one of the few NBA franchises who can accurately assess international talent (they also drafted Scola before trading his rights for Spanoulis, remember, and I still remember everyone thinking “WTF?” when they drafted Mahinmi). Basically, they are one of the few NBA teams to be able to correctly assess foreign talent, and the NBA is a better league because of it. I don’t think the Spurs will win the championship, but their run right now is a spectacular thing to watch, and it’s a result of a smart, open-minded management strategy.

    (I still kind of hope they lose to the Thunder ;))

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  34. mike
    13 years ago

    Phileus, I say the Spurs win over the Thunder. Durant and Westbrook are extraordinary talents, and Harden is pretty good too, but I just think the Spurs are too disciplined, and have home court advantage too. Spurs in 6. In the finals, Spurs over Boston in 5.

    Without Bosh, Miami can’t get out of the East. I’m of course a Sixer fan, and I hate the Celtics, but I have to separate my mind and my heart.

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  35. Vic
    13 years ago

    Gabe,

    Greece and Argentina were two equal teams in 2008. The game was decided by one basket. When two equal teams compete, one has to win. It happened to be Argentina. In 2006 they were equal as well. Greece happened to win the silver.

    Spain has been better than Greece and Argentina since 2006. I’ll give you that. And the USA was better than Spain. In fact, I think that the USA of 2008 was the best team in history. I think they would have won against the Dream Team of ’92. But that’s just me.

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  36. Panos
    13 years ago

    1. Anyone that says EuroChallenge is the third best league in Europe needs to be banned.

    Euroleague
    ACB
    United League
    Italian League
    Greek League
    Eurocup
    Adriatic League
    French League
    German League
    Turkish League
    Baltic League
    Russian League

    Those league are all WITHOUT QUESTION better than the EuroChallenge. Gabe, GET OUT OF THIS SITE.

    EuroChallenge is the THIRTEENTH best league in Europe.

    2. Diamantidis won’t play for Greece again, he just gave another interview where he said he refuses to play. He “needs his vacation time and his girlfriend forbids him from playing”.

    This guy is such a total prick.

    3. Greece is really getting screwed by injuries.

    C Loukas Mavrokefalidis (Timberwolves draft pick) – knee surgery – out
    C Kostas Koufos (Denver Nuggets) – knee surgery – out
    C Sofoklis Schortsanitis (Clippers draft pick) – knee surgery – out

    Greece is getting screwed. They will have Zisis, Fotsis and Bourousis with no rest. Their season ends on June 16th, and they have to start to the national team camp on June 18th.

    So, a dead tired SG, PF, and C in Zisis, Fotsis, and Bourousis, and then Vougioukas and Mavroeidis as the options at C to sub Bourousis. Vougioukas is extremely talented and can be totally dominant. But he is one of those players that has never performed for his national team and only plays good for his club team.

    Mavroeidis is very good if you force feed him, but he’s too similar to Vougioukas. They are both plodding, old school, pound it in the post centers. Greece needs some kind of different option there.

    Nick Calathes is supposedly going to play in the Mavs summer league, so he won’t be on the team.

    So Greece will have a team something like:

    Spanoulis/Sloukas/Mantzaris
    Zisis/Pappas
    Vasileiadis/Papanikolaou
    Fotsis/Printezis/Kaimakoglou
    Bourousis/Vougioukas

    That would be the first 11, and then the 12th spot would probably be between Pat Calathes, Kaimakoglou, Bramos, and Mavroeidis.

    Greece’s team will be extremely talented with all those young stars, mixed with their vet leaders, but at the same time, they will also be very inexperienced at such a level. It is basically a Greek equivalent of the USA 2010 team.

    They have enough to medal, but with so many key players missing the Olympics, their chances to win gold are getting slim now. It’s the 4th year in a row that numerous key players won’t play for Greece, due to injuries and personal choice. Greece has turned into the USA of 2000-2006 era in that way.

    4. Spanoulis was the key player of Greece ever since 2006, including the win over the USA, and he did DOMINATE Chris Paul.

    PROOF:

    http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fe/06_wcm/scheResu/p/eventid/3507/gamename/A/groupname/75/langlc/en/roundid/5152/fe_scheStat_boxScor.html

    Spanoulis was the one that led Greece and Chris Paul got totally owned by him on both ends of the floor. “Not good enough to play in the NBA”.

    ReplyCancel
    • Gabe
      13 years ago

      Eurochallenge is a “super” league like Euroleague and Eurocup in that it combined teams from national leagues. As that type of league it is the third best in Europe. Comparing it to national leagues is like comparing apples and oranges. What is better Eurocup or ACB? Unlike the national leagues it does not have any very weak teams. That being said D-Will also played in the Turkish League.

      No team has the right to complain about injuries. Look at the USA injuries
      Derrick Rose NBA MVP
      Dwight Howard 3X NBA Defensive player of the Tear 4X NBA first Team
      LaMarcus Aldridge All NBA third Team

      Argentina has done better than Greece in every tournament except 2006 and has won a gold medal. Until Greece actually does better in a tournament than Argentina is better.

      The FIBA 2006 World Championship was after Paul’s rookie year and he was not the player that he is today. He didn’t make his first all-star game until 2008.

      ReplyCancel
  37. Panos
    13 years ago

    Gabe says:
    May 21, 2012 at 4.53pm

    Reading these posts make me laugh. Yes I respect Greece and believe they are the 4th best team in the world after USA, Spain and Argentina. But Greece and Spanoulis have never won a gold medal in an Olympics or World Championships. The best they have achieved is silver in 2006 which is no better than what Italy achieved in 2004 or what Turkey did in 2010. In fact in the last too global tournaments they have not even made the semi-finals. Until they actually win either Olympic or World Championship gold they will never be the same level as USA, Spain or Argentina.

    ——–

    Argentina? ARGENTINA? Really? SERIOUSLY?

    LMFAO

    ReplyCancel
  38. Panos
    13 years ago

    Gabe says:
    May 21, 2012 at 10.03pm

    Argentina has been better than Greece in every tournament except 2006. In 2008 Argentina beat Greece in the quarter-finals. In 2010 Argentina was 5th place while Greece was 11th place. Even in 2006 Argentina lost to Spain and Pau Gasol by only one point in the semi-finals before Spain without Pau went on to defeat Greece by 23 points in the final.

    —-

    2004 and 2008 Olympics games between Greece and Argentina both ended at the last offensive possession of the game for Greece. THE LAST offensive possession.

    And both of the games included controversial calls that helped Argentina down the stretch.

    You are a glue sniffer.

    ReplyCancel
  39. Panos
    13 years ago

    Phileus says:
    May 22, 2012 at 6.32am

    “We, as basketball fans, should be delighted that the game is expanding.”

    Hooray! Vic wins the award for making the most sensible comment of the year in Ball in Europe!

    The Spurs are a perfect example of the good part of the globalization of basketball. They are the best team in the NBA right now, absolutely wonderful to watch, and their second (or first?) and third best players (Parker and Ginobili), plus two role players (Splitter and Fat Boris), are international (sorry, I won’t count the US Virgin Islands as “international”).

    The Spurs built their team by being one of the few NBA franchises who can accurately assess international talent (they also drafted Scola before trading his rights for Spanoulis, remember, and I still remember everyone thinking “WTF?” when they drafted Mahinmi). Basically, they are one of the few NBA teams to be able to correctly assess foreign talent, and the NBA is a better league because of it. I don’t think the Spurs will win the championship, but their run right now is a spectacular thing to watch, and it’s a result of a smart, open-minded management strategy.

    (I still kind of hope they lose to the Thunder 😉 )

    —-

    The Spurs do no personal assessment of any players in Europe. Popovich is Serbian, and his family still lives in Serbia. Every summer he goes to Serbia and he meets with Serbian coaches. They give him a list if prospects and tell him about them.

    If some of them declared for the draft and are available when the Spurs pick, then, if they got a good report from the Serbian coaches, then the Spurs draft them.

    The Spurs do absolutely nothing on their own in that regard. It is totally 100% from the Serbian friends that Popovich has.

    ReplyCancel
    • Gabe
      13 years ago

      Popovich’s father was Serbian and his mother was Croatian.

      ReplyCancel
    • Phileus
      13 years ago

      I do know for a fact that it’s not true that the Spurs do absolutely nothing, or that Popovich relies only 100% on the advice of his Serb friends (for example, http://bietemp.wpengine.com/us-basketball/nba/rob-meurs-nba-scout-who-touted-ginobili-and-parker-dies-at-54). I don’t doubt that Pop makes use of a network like that, but the Spurs have their own talent evaluators who have also had great success picking up players from the NCAA, and even players (like someone pointed out in another post) that weren’t anything special in Europe, like Green and Neal. Also, did someone in Europe really tell them that Ian Mahinmi was a good player? Lol. Mahinmi is a prototypical NBA athletic big man. Wasn’t he a volleyball player longer than a basketball player?

      ReplyCancel
  40. Panos
    13 years ago

    Phileus says:
    May 22, 2012 at 6.12am

    Why won’t Diamantidis play for the national team?

    —

    Diamantidis has a very low character and bad attitude. He does not consider playing for his national team to be important.

    ReplyCancel
  41. Panos
    13 years ago

    Vic says:
    May 21, 2012 at 9.37pm

    Who said Greece is about Spanoulis? Why all this emphasis on Spanoulis. Greece and Spanoulis? Give me a break. It’s like saying Germany and Nowitzky. Bad comparison. Spanoulis is not even the best player of Greece. He is one of the best, but not the best. Papaloukas was the core of the team when Greece beat the USA. And let’s not forget that he left Panathinaikos because he didn’t want to be second man after Diamantidis.
    —-

    You can’t be serious that you think Diamantidis is as good as Spanoulis now? Diamantidis is probably the 2nd best Greek player right now. But he’s not as good as Spanoulis.

    Many basketball experts in Europe are saying Spanoulis just had the greatest season in Euroleague history. I know Diamantidis had the best of the decade last year, but they are saying Spanoulis maybe had the best Euroleague season of all time.

    I think it is time that Panathinaikos fans let it go and get over it. Diamantidis isn’t the best Greek player anymore. But I would still give him #2.

    But right now Papanikolaou and Printezis are closing in on him fast.

    ReplyCancel
  42. Panos
    13 years ago

    And about Spanoulis and Papaloukas. I have watched them both in Olympiacos, and Spanoulis is far better than Papaloukas. In Olympiacos, Spanoulis

    Spanoulis > Sigalas
    Spanoulis > Teodosic
    Spanoulis > Kleiza
    Spanoulis > Papaloukas
    Spanoulis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Josh Childress
    Spanoulis > Fassoulas
    Spanoulis > Tomic
    Spanoulis > David Rivers
    Spanoulis > Galakteros
    Spanoulis > Eddie Johnson
    Spanoulis > Tarpley
    Spanoulis > Paspalj
    Spanoulis > Walter Berry
    Spanoulis > Willy Andersen
    Spanoulis > D. Papanikolaou
    Spanoulis > Karnisovas
    Spanoulis > Schortsanitis
    Spanoulis > Printezis

    > Chris Morris, Blue Edwards, Roger Mason, Maurice Evans, Bourousis, Oberto, even better than Alphonso Ford himself.

    Spanoulis is THE BEST player Olympiacos has EVER had.

    ReplyCancel
  43. Panos
    13 years ago

    > Radja
    > Ekonomou

    Spanoulis is the all time #1 of Olympiacos. Give him the proper respect he deserves.

    Final Four MVP of both Panathinaikos and Olympiacos (led both the huge rivals of Europe to a Euroleague crown)………..no player has ever done something like this before in Europe and none ever will again.

    Can you imagine Bodiroga winning with Olympiacos after he left PAO or with Real Madrid after he left Barca?

    Can you imagine Navarro winning it with Real Madrid? Diamantidis with Olympiacos?

    Give Spanoulis his props. He left Panathinaikos because coach Obradovic refused to make him the #1 player over Diamantidis.

    He went to a new team and coach, started from scratch, and as the leader, carried his young team, the whole season to a title.

    http://www.euroleague.net/news/i/97620/180/spanoulis-takes-second-final-four-mvp-trophy

    “The Reds began the season not even considered a sure Top 16 team, let alone a playoff contender or Final Four candidate. With four players under 22 in key roles and several others who weren’t even in the Euroleague last season, it was an uphill climb that everyone in Olympiacos recognized. But the Reds had one thing going for them from the start: an unparalleled leader in Spanoulis,

    He finished as the Euroleague’s second leading scorer and led Olympiacos in assists as well. But more than anything it was his faith in his teammates, behind the scenes and on the floor, where he took more responsibility than any player in recent memory, that Spanoulis stood out most.”

    What he has done this season is all time historical. The Euroleague experts at euroleague.net that have followed the game for 20-30 years have said that he has cemented his place as one of the best 5 European players of the last 3 decades.

    Diamantidis has had an unbelievable career. But as of right now, he’s the fourth best Greek player ever IMO, after Galis, then Spanoulis, then Giannakis.

    ReplyCancel
  44. Vic
    13 years ago

    Hey Panos, you’re making Spanoulis sound like Jordan. Let the poor man be.

    ReplyCancel
  45. Panos
    13 years ago

    Do you disagree that he is the best Olympiacos player ever?

    For me top Greek players ever:

    1. Nikos Galis

    2. Vassilis Spanoulis (best Greek born ever)

    3. Panagiotis Giannakis

    4. Dimitris Diamantidis

    5. Theo Papaloukas

    6. Nikos Zisis

    7. Ioannis Bourousis

    8. Antonis Fotsis

    9. Sofoklis Schortsanitis

    10. Michalis Kakiouzis

    Then after this comes the ones like Alvertis, Rentzias, Printezis, Sigalas, Fassoulas, Christodolou, Tsartaris, Hatzivrettas, Kolokithas, Kontos, V. Koronios, Dikoudis, Kalaitzis, Ekonomou, T. Koronios, Filippou, Goumas, D. Papanikolaou, etc.

    Best Olympiacos player ever (Greek or otherwise) – Spanoulis.

    Best Panathinaikos player ever (Greek or otherwise) – hard to say. There is Galis, Wilkins, Diamantidis, Spanoulis, Jasikevicius, Bodiroga, Kontos, Koronios, Batiste, Pekovic, Radja, Scott, Siskauskas, Tomasevic, Tsartsaris, Vujanic, Becirovic, Hatzivrettas, Vrankovic…..

    I am probably forgetting some. So many players that had big impact. I go with Diamantidis though.

    Aris best is Galis, and next is Giannakis.

    National team of Greece all time best players is:

    1. Galis
    2. Giannakis
    3. Spanoulis
    4. Zisis
    5. Papaloukas

    Also Christodolou, Fassoulas, Fotsis, Bourousis and then have been great in the national team.

    For me, most memorable of all time Greek players is:

    1. Galis
    2. Spanoulis
    3. Giannakis
    4. Diamantidis
    5. Papaloukas
    6. Zisis
    7. Fotsis

    Spanoulis even can still surpass Galis I think. If he leads Greece to a medal at the Olympics and wins another Euroleague as the leader of his team, and then can win a EuroBasket (maybe 2013), as the leader, then for me he will even pass Galis.

    It is obviously very hard to do all that, but I think he is capable to do it.

    ReplyCancel
  46. Jack
    13 years ago

    Gabe says:
    May 22, 2012 at 4.37pm

    Popovich’s father was Serbian and his mother was Croatian.

    Ever hear of something called Yugoslavia?

    Wait, of course not. You don’t know anything about anything.

    ReplyCancel
    • Gabe
      13 years ago

      So why call him just Serbian instead of Yugoslavian?

      ReplyCancel
  47. RT
    13 years ago

    Gabe says:
    May 20, 2012 at 4.09pm

    The EuroChallenge (called the FIBA Europe League in 2003–05, and EuroCup in 2005–08)[1] is the 3rd tier level transnational men’s professional club basketball competition in Europe. It is organized and run by FIBA Europe. It is not to be confused with the EuroCup Challenge – the now defunct 4th tier level transnational men’s professional club basketball competition in Europe, which was also organized and run by FIBA Europe, and played during the 2002–03 to 2006–07 seasons.

    from wiki

    _______________________________________________________________

    You didn’t say that EuroChallenge was the #3 continental tournament. You said it was the “third best league in Europe”.

    Which it obviously isn’t, as it is really like the #13 best as already pointed out.

    What you said isn’t true and your wiki quote does not make what you said true.

    You are trying to manipulate the facts.

    By calling the 13th best league in Europe the “third best league in Europe”.

    If you want to call it the third best continental competition, then fine. But you didn’t say that.

    You said, “it is the third best LEAGUE in Europe”, which is complete false and totally absurd.

    Yeah a league with teams from Georgia, Khazakstan, Switzerland, Finland, Sweden, Austria, Cyprus, Hungary, Romania, etc. is the “third best league in Europe”…..

    You see Gabe, it is this kind of crap from you that makes so many Europeans here dislike you.

    ReplyCancel
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